Recruiters Care. Hiring is Complicated

Well, Beth, thank you so much for joining me today. It’s great to see you, and I’m glad that you could come on the podcast. I know our audience is going to learn a lot from you today. To kick things off, it’d be great. Just a quick background on you and DaxCo, which is where you’re at today.

Beth Wolfe
Yeah. For sure. Well, first, thank you so much for having me on. It’s very cool.

So, yeah, I’m Beth Wolf. I am the senior director of recruiting for us here at Daxgo. I’ve been at Daxgo for eleven years now and in the recruiting world for about seventeen years, which is crazy. Makes me feel a little old.

It’s been a really fun, experience for sure. For those who don’t know, Daxco is a software services provider in the gym and and wellness space. So, essentially, we are providing the software that helps power the business side of a gym. So membership management, payment processing, marketing tools, all those types of things to help them be successful with their members.

Josh Tolan
That’s great. And what does the company look like today in terms of number of employees?

Beth Wolfe
Yeah. We have grown. So when I started at DAXO eleven years ago, we were probably just over a hundred and.

We are now right at that eight hundred mark, and we are all over the US. We also have an office in India with about two hundred people. We’ve got contractors in other countries as well. So it’s been a really fun and wild ride.

Josh Tolan
Yeah. That’s eleven years going from a hundred to eight hundred plus people is is pretty crazy. What does the talent acquisition team look like in terms of, you know, size, makeup?

Beth Wolfe
Yeah. So I have right now four full time direct reports and an intern. So we have two senior recruiters and two coordinators that assist who and our coordinators, I will say, are more like associate recruiter slash coordinators. They really do a lot. They help, you know, run some recs, that sort of thing. And then our interns have always been instrumental to our success as well. We’ve had some really solid interns over the years.

Josh Tolan
Yep.

And when you were first brought on eleven years ago, was that, like, the start of the recruiting

Beth Wolfe
function? When

Josh Tolan
you were the

Beth Wolfe
recruiting So when I was brought on, I think they had had folks who were kind of more like generalists before that for the most part, and they brought me on as, like, the dedicated talent acquisition specialist.

And I was a team of one for many years before we, you know, started growing and expanding that.

Josh Tolan
Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. Typically, like, up to a hundred employees Recruiting is mostly living under HR. It’s just like another thing they have to do, and then they realize, oh my gosh. We have way too many things to do, and we need to be really good at recruiting because we’re growing, and that’s the time to bring somebody in.

Beth Wolfe
For sure.

Josh Tolan
So what types of roles are you guys recruiting for today?

Beth Wolfe
Yeah. So it runs a gamut. You know, obviously, we’re a software company, so we have software engineering, software test, those types of roles. But we also have a lot of roles in customer support and service because that’s instrumental to our success.

We have marketing roles. We have roles in product and, obviously, sales because you gotta sell the software that you make.

So

Josh Tolan
Yep.

For sure. And so on the TA team, are is anybody specializing in particular areas? Like, okay. These folks focus on engineering recruiting.

This is more customer facing or

Beth Wolfe
Yeah.

We’ve tried some of that in the past, especially in that kind of time frame around twenty twenty one, twenty two when hiring went crazy.

And we went from filling, like, a hundred and fifty roles to three hundred roles in a year. So, like, that was a little bananas. We we kinda pulled that back. So now our recruiters are a little bit more you know, they do a little bit of everything.

Josh Tolan
Yep. Make sense. So you’ve been there eleven years. Things have changed a lot. Like, as you look out at the market and what you’re seeing today, what are some of the biggest things that, like, maybe a few years ago you could have never imagined you’d be dealing with today? I mean, just in general, like, what are the biggest changes?

Beth Wolfe
Yeah. And I’m sure you’ve probably heard this like a broken record, right, if you’ve been talking to folks, but AI changed everything. Right? And not only AI for good, but AI for, like, nefarious purposes. So, you know, five years ago, if you would have told me that sixty plus percent of my engineering candidates were gonna be completely fake profiles, I would have been like, what are you talking about?

But that’s that’s one of the challenges that we now deal with is, you know, the candidates who, quote, look best on paper probably aren’t real. So and you have to do a lot more work on the front end to just even validate somebody before you you’ve even had a conversation because you’re trying to save your time and not waste time on on things that are, you know, not real. So that’s been a huge challenge. And then just to the volume.

Right? Because these different tools, whether they’re AI or not, are helping candidates, and it’s kind of a a product of our own creation. Right? For I remember, you know, ten, fifteen years ago, everybody was talking about, you know, opt optimizing your application process.

Right? Let’s make it easier, easy apply, all the things. We need to make make the, you know, barrier to entry low, and we did that. And now we are, you know, kind of dealing with the consequences of some of those decisions because you open a role and, you know, forty eight hours later, you have four hundred, six hundred candidates to review.

And, you know, every recruiter is working a higher rec load than they probably were five, six years ago. So you have more recs, more candidates, less time. You know? And so it’s just the the time crunch is the biggest challenge, I think, right now.

Josh Tolan
Yeah. I mean, that’s what we’re seeing all over the place is it’s it’s really capacity, and you’ve hit on, like, so many of the points already, all the converging forces that are creating it. Yeah. And a lot of them, like, it’s they’re not bad things in isolation.

They’re just converging forces nonetheless and are creating challenges when they all compound. Like, I think we even talked about before we started recording here, but just like the environment at Daxco. Right? You guys are now you know, a lot of people are working from home.

So when you are posting a remote or even a hybrid role, the volume’s gonna go up because the reach is gonna go up because more people can, you know, sit in that, you know, seat. Right?

Beth Wolfe
Yeah.

Josh Tolan
So you have that challenge. We’ve we overoptimize with easy apply and everything like that to make it super frictionless. Like, remove all friction and make it easier for people to apply.

A good thing on its own. Like, yeah, like, don’t make your application unnecessarily long and complex for people to submit. And then to your point, candidates, we’ve told them for years, like, optimize your resume for the job, and that is still a good thing. And AI, the democratization of AI and the fact that it’s in every candidate’s hand is a good thing. Like, it’s great that they can easily optimize their resume and tailor what they’ve learned and their experiences to the job description.

But it’s good in isolation. But on the flip side of the challenge, when it comes over to the recruiter, it’s like, okay. Well, if a hundred people just did that, like, there’s this level of sameness to everybody’s application. And so for the recruiter, it really hasn’t made it any easier to figure out who rises to the top of that list. And then on top of that, like you mentioned, some some issues with your applications that, you know, aren’t even genuine applications. So it’s like all these things have created this pressure that we’re dealing with in the talent acquisition industry, and everybody’s trying to solve it in different ways. Of course, I guess, what are some of the things that you guys have been doing to try and tackle it?

Beth Wolfe
So, I mean, it’s it’s multifold. Right? So one of the things that we are what we actually just changed our applicant tracking system. So to, you know, try and optimize some of the tool sets that we’re using to make it easier, not only for recruiters, but for hiring managers to collaborate and really get in there and define what good is.

Right? So I think it’s it’s using tools like AI. Right? Like, we want to be using those tools to help us be more efficient on the front end.

Let’s let’s quickly optimize our job descriptions to really hone in on, you know, what are we really looking for. I know this we have this broad JD from HR, but let’s let’s optimize the job description that we’re posting for candidates so that they know, am I qualified? Am I not? They can opt in and opt out better so that the recruiter knows what good truly is on the front end.

Because I think for a long time, we we wasted too much time just kind of throwing things like, is this what you need? Is this what you need? It’s that whole, like, parable of, like, go find me a rock, and you’re, like, bringing back all the rocks. And you’re like, is this the one?

And you haven’t defined what rock you want.

So I think we lived like that for too long. And so with, you know, the optimization that can you can do with AI on the front end, you can really help define that earlier on in the process so that you can then build that into your AI sourcing tools. And, you know, you can, you know, refine your list and and really try to get those good candidates to the top first. The fact of the matter is and, like, I hate saying this even, like, publicly because I feel like it’s so controversial maybe, and and recruiters are so villainized right now, and I don’t wanna create more of that for my team or anything.

But, you know, the fact about it is is we just can’t look at every resume that comes in. Nobody can. Right? There’s there’s not enough hours and time in the day to look at twelve hundred applicants that came in in four days.

So you have to really find ways to to filter that list and get those candidates that truly meet, you know, what you’re looking for to the top faster. So any kind of tools that we can utilize to help micro creators do that, we’re all in on right now. So Yeah. So we’re looking at things like that.

We’re looking at things that help us identify fraudulent candidates earlier in the process. So right now, we use a tool that that does that. We’re looking at other tools to see, like, is there a way to integrate that, you know, even with our ATS so we can know right away. Like, this one’s probably not real.

So, like, don’t waste any time even getting excited about that. Because that’s one of the frustrating things. It’s not only the risk you present to your company if you’re hiring somebody fraudulent. Right?

It’s just the time wasted. Because even if you figure it out before they’ve hired, you’re like, well, I’ve spent ten minutes looking at your resume and sending you an invite and prepping for your your call and then meeting with you, and now, like, that’s all for nothing. So it’s really just trying to cut out as much of that wasted time as possible.

Josh Tolan
Yeah. I think that’s a great I the reality is there’s no time to spare. There’s no capacity to spare. And so No.

A, it can’t be spent on things that don’t matter. And, b, the other point that you brought up is that’s why it’s so important to create clarity early in the hiring process before the hiring process even starts with the manager to be very clear about what we’re looking for because you can’t spare the time in the process, like you said, of bringing them the rock constantly and saying, like, is this what you’re looking for? Is this what you’re looking for? It just completely drags out the process.

And like you said, there’s just no time for that. Right? So we have to we have to optimize on structure. We have to optimize on tools.

To me, it’s always, you know, structure comes first. Tools help reinforce the structure and further optimize, you know, what you’re looking for and what you’re what you’ve been trying to put in place. I think you also brought up a good point about, you know, in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, we had the luxury of maybe specializing recruiters to be able to focus on specific roles. And now we’re in this era where it’s like, do more with less, figure it out.

Every rec is on your plate. You’re hiring for marketing. You’re hiring for engineers and all these other types of positions, which also means you’re you need to know all those types of positions, and you need to be able to collaborate with all those managers, whether it be frequently or infrequently. So it’s like all these things on your are on your plate, which is why, you know, to me, like, the big priorities, you gotta figure out ways to invent capacity, and some of that is through structure and clarity, and then some of that is on the tool side.

I think good transition to to really what I thought would be interesting to talk about today because I see it. You see it. It’s all over LinkedIn. It’s like the villainization of recruiters and this a lot of chatter about what is happening behind the scenes when it’s like, we know what is happening behind the scenes, but not everybody else knows what’s happening behind the scenes.

Now I could empathize with that because I think that’s kind of the biggest problem with hire the hiring process in general is it’s like it’s a black box. Like, you’ve got candidates that submit their, you know, application and whatever else through the hiring process. And, like, companies can be as transparent as they possibly can, but at the end of the day, the candidate isn’t in your office and can see what’s going on with your team or the things that you’re wrestling with on a day to day basis. So it’s like, even if you’re as the most transparent company you could possibly be, it’s still just a glimpse into, like, what’s actually happening in the day to day.

Yeah. And so I can empathize with, like, the job seekers that are, like you know, with without clarity, they’re just left to make their own assumptions of what happened with this application they submitted or with the interview they did. But I think on the other side, like, I could really empathize with recruiters that are just trying their best, trying their best to keep up, trying their best to give candidates a fair shot, trying their best to nudge that hiring manager to give the feedback so they can get back to the candidate. Like, there’s so many things that are going on throughout the process.

You mentioned not even be able to, like, review, you know, twelve hundred resumes come in. What are you supposed to do with that? Like, you need to be able to get back to the top candidates fast so they don’t go somewhere else.

Like, how do you handle that? And I think, you know, that’s that’s often something that’s just, like, misunderstood as everything that’s going on in the background. It’s like Yeah. What comes to mind when when we talk about that for you?

Beth Wolfe
So for me, I’m like, those who know me, like, I’m generally, like, an optimistic person.

I wouldn’t call myself, like, a Pollyanna, but I do try to see the silver lining in things and try to see the best in people. And so that’s one of the things I try to emphasize on my team is when you’re working with candidates, when you’re working with hiring managers, when you’re working with anybody, it’s like default to trust and default to, like, good intention. Right? If we automatically assume that that hiring manager or that candidate meant something bad by, you know, this message they sent you or not responding or doing something else, then you can get really negative really quick.

But if we default to a positive intent and and really try to, you know, understand other people’s perspectives, I think it gives you just more patience to deal with all the stuff that’s coming at us all the time. Right? So from a hiring manager perspective, it’s really understanding you know, hiring is part of their job, but it’s not the only part of their job. It’s our job.

It’s all of our job. Right? Hundred percent, but it’s not a hundred percent of their job. And we have to understand that they have a lot of other responsibilities on their plate.

So how can I make this as easy as possible for them? Right? And sometimes that means bending your process a little bit. If, like, you’re saying, okay.

Yes. But I tagged them in the system, and we really want everything in the system. Yes. We do want everything in the system.

But sometimes it’s good to just call that that hiring manager, especially sales managers, for instance. They’re always on the road. Right? They hardly look at Slack.

But you know what they’re always on? Their phone. Call them. Text them. They’re always on their phone.

So it’s trying to kinda, like, meet people where they are, I think, and kind of, again, like, having that good and, you know, assuming good intent. And then from a candidate perspective, it’s really doing your best to kind of, I think, assess where the situation is. So for us at Daxco, you know, I’ve always coached my recruiting team to, hey. If somebody’s made it into our process, if we’ve talked to them, if they’ve interviewed with a live person and, like, really been in the process, they deserve a phone call if they’re being rejected.

And, you know, we’re not gonna, like, harass somebody and, like, make them get on a call because, you know, a lot people don’t answer phones today, right, in this day and age. So it might be that we don’t get them on the phone, but we can at least leave a voice mail with phone number and say, like, hey. This is the decision, and we’ll follow-up with an email. Now if you’ve never, like, talked to a live person you applied, we’re still gonna follow-up with you if the role’s filled.

You know, we’re gonna close the loop. That’s the biggest thing, I think, it’s closing the loop with people and letting them know, like, you’re no longer being considered. You’re not just out here in this ether. But I think that the level of of what somebody, quote, unquote, deserves is to me dictated by, you know, where they are in the process.

If you’re super early in the process, we might not have as much feedback for you because we didn’t get to know you as well. We just knew that other people were better suited for the role. So I think sometimes it’s it’s tempering your expectations. I think sometimes candidates have these expectations of recruiters to be more of a, quote, career coach than we are.

Like, that’s not our job. Our job is to fill roles for the company. It’s not to coach you to be a better candidate. And I hate to say that and to be so blunt about it, but that’s truly what it is.

And there are people who do that for a living, and they’re wonderful. And I, you know, could suggest a few, but, you know, that’s not our job at, you know, at Daxio or, you know, any corporate recruiter. Their job isn’t to coach you as a candidate, and trying to kinda level set that sometimes is difficult.

Josh Tolan
Yeah. I I think that’s right. And and that’s the challenging thing about being a recruiter is you’re dealing with so many different stakeholders, both candidates, like people that are outside the company and then also people that are inside the company. And it’s like Yeah.

You’re constantly having to balance, like, how do we meet people where they are? And on the candidate side, it’s literally like, how do we meet them where they were in the process? Right? Like, let’s let’s let’s match the I don’t wanna it’s like the rejection message, but let’s match the let’s match the messaging with how far along they made in the process and how much time they invested in the process Yeah.

When we communicate with them. With hiring managers, it’s let’s match and maybe meet them where they are based on, like, what they have going on in the day to day and how they work. And that’s a challenge because it’s like In an ideal world, you’d want every hiring manager to follow the same process, but the reality is that’s just not gonna happen. So it’s like setting those proper expectations.

And I think a lot of that is what it comes down to as best as you can with candidates and hiring managers. It’s just like, lay the lay the groundwork. And it’s okay. You can both have empathy, and you can have high standards and create accountability at the same time.

Beth Wolfe
Yeah.

Josh Tolan
But it’s hard. Like, that’s just that’s just what it comes down to. And I think, like, that’s what there’s not a lot not not enough empathy from recruiters for is, like, it’s just hard. You’re just balancing a lot of things, and you’re balancing a process that is really emotional for people because of, like, how invested candidates are into the process. And on the manager side, like, this is like, there’s team successes in a lot of ways depending on getting this person hired or getting them hired quickly, making sure they’re the right fit so they, you know, ramp to productivity and all those types of things. Everybody’s, like, so invested. So it’s like this, like, kettle thoughts of, like, pressure here, and then it’s on the recruiter to manage all that.

Beth Wolfe
And it’s difficult too. Right? Because every piece in the puzzle is has different motives to a degree. Right?

So recruiters were were, you know, sort of incentivized by time. Time to fill, time to hire, you know, do it quickly, do it, you know, do as fast as possible. Hiring managers are looking at the best quality. Right?

They need to have a candidate who’s gonna come in and and do the best, you know, for this, you know, team. Team members who are involved in the process who are interview you know, interviewers, they’re protecting the team itself. Right? Like, we don’t wanna let anybody in who’s gonna mess this up that we’ve got going on.

And then, like, executives are really just looking at cost per hire.

So everybody’s sort of, like, incentivized differently, and so it just creates this dichotomy that sometimes is difficult to manage as a recruiting team.

Josh Tolan
Yeah. That’s interesting. You know? And that’s unique, I think, about the recruiting function. I guess I’ve never really thought about it in that type of way.

But in other functions within the business, there’s generally, like, a north star Yes. Metric. Like, that leadership is looking at and that people outside the team and people inside the team are looking at, like, sales.

It’s sales. Right?

Like, you

Beth Wolfe
know Totally.

Josh Tolan
Whatever that metric is for you, but it’s generally it’s the top line sales. Right? Yeah. But in recruiting, it’s things that, like, maybe the recruiting team knows they need to focus on. So there’s a metric that’s very important for them to, like, index on to make sure that we’re running the best process possible. But a hiring manager looks at success of the hiring process differently and so does leadership and so on.

Beth Wolfe
Yeah. So that’s it just makes it an interesting and unique challenge for us to to balance.

But it’s also, to me, kind of part of what makes recruiting fun and unique and, you know, different.

So

Josh Tolan
Yeah.

Yeah. Totally. That’s the challenge. I I also think, like, let’s let’s hop back to candidates for a second and just thinking about, like I think it’d be helpful.

Like, maybe let’s we try and paint a picture of what is actually happening behind the scenes. Like you said, like, maybe we just break down, like, day to day or what a role looks like. Or Yeah. Yeah.

Like, you know, something like that. Like, because I think you bring up an interesting point too about, you know, you get twelve hundred applicants. Like, the volume is one thing, and it’s like, how do we get through that list and and make sure everybody gets a fair shot? But I think, you know, other things, just as an example, that often go overlooked when candidates, like, submit a resume and they’re like, oh, like, I didn’t even get a phone screen or whatever the next step is be and and I’m perfect for this role.

Like, I I meet everything on paper. And the reality is, like, maybe, but also you could have applied four weeks after the role was posted, and they’ve got somebody in, like, a reference check stage that is like an offer is being made to. So it’s not a matter of, like, you weren’t good. It’s like just timing didn’t line up.

Beth Wolfe
Exactly. I have this conversation all the time, and I especially talk talk a lot with early career folks about this because they haven’t experienced it as much.

But you’re absolutely right. More than anything, timing plays a huge role in hiring. Right? When you when you apply, when your resume came in because the fact of the matter is, like you said, we’re not gonna get through twelve hundred. We might get through two hundred. And in that list of two hundred, we have ten really qualified candidates.

That’s good. And you may be, you know, applicant number eight hundred and probably might be better than the ten that we have that we have shortlisted. But the ten that we have that are shortlisted are good enough to meet what we need for this role. So just because you might be a little bit better, we just didn’t get to you.

And to me and I know it’s kind of, like, cliche and a dated reference, but, like, it is to me similar to, you know, finding people online. Right? Everybody’s online dating. Right?

You’re not gonna sit there and swipe two thousand times. Like, if you make a couple of matches, you’re gonna be like, you know, this is good. I’m gonna go on these dates. You’re not gonna go on seven hundred dates.

Right. So, like, you’re just not gonna do it. So you’re gonna find somebody that’s like, hey. This this person meets enough of what I need.

You know? There may be somebody even better out there for me, but I like this one. So, you know, I think it’s it’s it’s kind of having that understanding that it’s not personal. And I know it feels personal from a candidate perspective because for them, it is.

But on the business side, it’s not personal. We’re really just trying to be efficient with our time and find the best person that we can and the time that we have to meet the needs of our business and our customers. And if we can do those things without, like, going through twelve hundred resumes, then we’re gonna do those things. Now there are times where, you know, you’re looking for a long time.

And I get sometimes people ask me, like, well, why do you keep the job open? Like, what if you after you get a hundred resumes, why do keep the job open? We might get a hundred resumes in an hour. So one, we don’t want time to babysit and be like, oh my gosh.

We’ve hit the magic number. And some ATSs will shut it off for you automatically and all of that. I get that. But some of it too is we don’t know that we have what we need in those hundred.

Right? We have to have time to go through it. And we’re, you know, we’re filtering, and, you know, we’re we’re using keyword searches, and we’re we’re doing those things to try and, you know, find the best candidates. So we leave it open for a certain amount of time.

Now we do take them down once we kind of get like, okay. We’ve got a good pool. But we also wanna give people an opportunity. Right?

Because if you just take it down immediately because you’ve got four hundred candidates, it might have only been posted for seven hours, and somebody who was deep heads down to working may not have seen it.

And and they might be a really great candidate. So we wanna make sure we’re giving ample opportunity for people to put their name in the hat and and show interest while also balancing this, you know, you know, high wire act of when’s it when’s it too much?

Josh Tolan
That’s right. It’s it’s a high wire act. It like, you just gave a couple examples of that in practice. Right?

It’s Yeah. Yeah. You could turn the ad off, but then what if you need to turn it back on because something happened with the pool you were looking into? It’s like, then what does that signify to the people that are late in the process where it’s like you close the ad?

They’re like, why did they close the ad? Did they hire somebody? Was it not me? It’s like, no matter what you could do, like, the reality is there’s no right answer.

No. No. And I think that’s where it’s like assuming positive intent is is really the way to go. And as an employer, like, communicate as much as you can.

But there’s no there’s no perfect answer. Right? Yeah. On the other example of when you said, okay.

We’ve got a short list of ten candidates, and that’s who we’re proceeding with, or we’re gonna, you know, move them through the hiring process. We’re gonna do it quickly. Yeah. To the eight hundredth person that applied, you know, sorry.

It sucks. Like, that’s just bad timing. Right?

Beth Wolfe
I mean, it really

Josh Tolan
But to the ten people, that’s good because you know what that means is the hiring manager and the recruiter got on the same page about what they were looking for.

They had such good criteria that they could shortlist those people, that those ten people are gonna have a really good experience and move through the process quickly because of that. The flip side is the hiring manager and recruiter couldn’t have been on the same page, didn’t know what they’re looking for, had to go on eight hundred dates, right, in the in the in the example that you use. And then people are complaining because the process is too long. I’m going through five interviews.

So, you know, there’s two sides to everything. Right? And and the reality is you’re not gonna be able to please everybody, but I think it just it comes down to, like, if you can be clear so, like, you can run a good process, if you can be communicative as as best as you can be, assume positive intent, be empathetic. Like, that’s putting your best foot forward as as as a recruiter, and I think, like, you know, I just I just wish more people could certainly see that.

Beth Wolfe
Yeah. And I think I mean, this is this is not, like, a uniquely recruiting problem. This is a societal problem that right now, it’s it’s cool to just villainize people, right, and to to bring them down. And that’s what that’s what gets clicks.

That’s what gets you know, goes viral. It’s it’s the quote rage bait of it all, that sort of thing. It’s interesting. I actually just posted something that for me, you know, kind of went semi viral.

I I posted what I thought was a really funny response that I got from a candidate. Right? So I had we filled some AI engineer positions, And, you know, AI is hot right now. So, obviously, we got a lot of interest and a lot of applications for these these roles, which was great, but we we did fill it.

And so we sent our rejection email to, you know, a lot of candidates letting them know these roles were filled. And I got a very cheeky response from one of the candidates, which I took as hilarious because, again, that’s just my personality. I choose to see see things as funny or whatever. It could have been taken as, you know, over the line or passive aggressive and all this and that and whatever.

So it was funny to me to read all the comments from people because some people went really negative with it. And I just thought, like, what a sad way to see the world that, like, you always, like, see the negative in it. And maybe he meant it negative. I’m choosing to not see that.

I’m choosing to receive it as this guy is pretty funny and cheeky, and I would consider him again for a future role. And other people were like, well, now you know to never hire him. And I’m like, why? Because he’s got a sense of humor?

I don’t know. I don’t see things that way. But I think just societally, like, if we could just give people the benefit of the doubt and, like, not just be looking for rage bait, then, you know, I think we’d all be happier and be let little less stressed.

Josh Tolan
My so my wife is a therapist.

Okay. She she taught me this this phrase, and this it reminds me of it is, like, just take a beat and start with, like, may when you’re thinking about somebody else before you make an assumption, like, maybe they dot dot dot. Right? So Nice.

It often comes up when we’re in the car. I get impatient when people are not going when the light is green or whenever it is. And I’m like, come on. Like, what are they doing?

Like, drive. Drive. Drive. And she’s like, maybe they had a kid in the back seat who needed something, so they had to turn around for a second or gave you know?

It’s just it’s just like stopping to take a beat. And in this case, the candidate is like, maybe they were just trying to be funny and, like, you know, just have a little bit of fun. It’s in a process that can be really stressful. Yeah.

And, like, take it for what it is.

Beth Wolfe
And if they were angry and meant it negatively, like, they were having a bad day, I get it. Job searching is hard. I I’m not gonna sit here and, like, put a, you know, lipstick on a pig. It’s tough right now.

And and especially where I work in the technology field, it’s more competitive right now than it’s been as long as I’ve been in recruiting, and it’s a really hard market. There are people who’ve been out of work for way too long, very talented people out of work, and that’s sad, and I hate it. And I wish I had enough jobs to give to everybody, but I just don’t. So if somebody wants to send me something that, you know, gets some frustration off their chest, like, it’s not gonna bother me that much.

Like, I’ve seen a lot in my seventeen years, and I received a lot. So to me, his message was, like, very tame compared to some of the nasty grams that I’ve received.

Josh Tolan
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I I saw another one of your LinkedIn posts, and this one really resonated with me because we we deal with the same thing internally.

And, again, like, I don’t know I don’t know if there is a right answer to this thing, but you had a post about hiring during the holidays. Right? And it’s like, what’s the appropriate way and timing to communicate with somebody? Like, you wanna get sent back to somebody quick if they didn’t get the role or if they did get the role or whatever it is.

But, like, there’s, you know, a lot of high emotions during that time because of, you know, the holidays, like, just naturally. And so, like, that really resonated with me.

Beth Wolfe
Yeah. The person that I had in mind when I wrote that, she’s an amazing candidate who interviewed with us for our product team. It was just that silver medalist, you know, when you’re like, oh, they’re so close, and it’s like, we could go either way. They’re both amazing.

And so, you know, I just like, I felt responsibility to call her and and and let her know, and so I did. And she she took it really well. But before I made the call, like, you know, you have that, like, heartburn where you’re going, oh, gosh. I have to call this amazing person who’s very talented and tell them that they’re not getting this job that they’re very excited about, and it’s December twenty third.

Yep. I don’t wanna ruin her holidays. But I also one of the things I was like, I don’t want her talking about this opportunity the whole time with her family, but I can’t wait to hear from them and and that sort of thing. So it’s like, you’re balancing both sides.

And it’s you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t. You know, it’s that whole thing. Even going back to the the delayed emails, we most ATSs, you know, you can delay the email for a certain amount of time.

Josh Tolan
Yeah.

Beth Wolfe
And we and you do that a lot because, you know, if you get in there right away and you’re looking at at candidates and you see somebody applied an hour ago, And if you send that rejection email, you know, everybody wants them, you know, please close the loop. Let me know. Let me know where I stand. But if you send it too quickly, they think you didn’t even give me a chance. And you’re like, well, I gave you the same consideration I would now versus two days from now.

Yeah. But if it if it helps you to feel better, I will delay this for two days.

Josh Tolan
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, sometimes yeah. To your point, like, there’s no right answer.

Like, I always lean towards just just give the news. Just like you’re better off telling the person because then that allows the you don’t know on the other side, like, just as much as some things are a black box on the hiring side. It’s like, you don’t know if the candidate’s waiting to hear back from you to make a decision on some other offer or something else that’s out there. So it’s like, you’re better off just getting the news out there.

And I think it’s also okay to acknowledge that getting the news out there sometimes earlier or with bad timing sucks. So if it’s during the holidays, like, it’s okay to include that in the message or in the phone call when you’re talking to them about, like, hey. I know I know this isn’t great timing, but, like, we really value, like, quick feedback and decision making, and we wanna make sure you have the answers so you can move forward with whatever you gotta move forward with. But I I still know this sucks, and I completely empathize with it.

Like

Beth Wolfe
It just

Josh Tolan
That’s perfectly perfectly, you know, good in my book.

And so I think, you know, again, I don’t know I don’t know if that’s the right answer, but that’s just what we do. And I think that’s that’s something that, you know, teams are are constantly balancing with.

Beth Wolfe
Yeah. Well, that candidate actually got back to me too, and she she said, I saw your post. She’s like, I really appreciate what you called me. And I was like, good. I feel better.

Josh Tolan
Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s that’s always good when you get, like, some reassurance from the candidate that Yeah. And, look, I think that’s, you know, that’s the other that’s the other that’s tough thing about there’s so many great things about being a recruiter.

Like, the best thing is when a candidate accepts an offer, you’re able to bring them you’re able to give a candidate offer. They accept the offer, and it’s like a new step in their career. And then you see them flourish in the organization. Like, that’s amazing.

But on the flip side, there’s, you know, one thousand one hundred ninety nine other candidates that didn’t get that role that the twelve hundred applied for. Yep. And you have to tell them no, and that’s the downside of things. And I think, like, you know, again, just comparing this to every other function within the business, there’s no other function in the business that has to tell people no more than in recruiting.

Right? Like, other parts of the business get told no sales. But you’re not often having to deliver the the negative news. And so I think that’s where, like, to me, like, there’s so much talk about, like, the human side of the recruiting and keeping human recruiting human first.

Like, that’s why I think, like, going back and just kinda maybe full circle in this conversation, if we go back to the beginning and we think about the lack of capacity teams are dealing with and how it’s like, you don’t you don’t have time to spare. So we have to optimize, and we have to build structure, and we have to use tools.

In in a lot of cases, we have to use AI.

But it’s also about, like, taking that capacity you create and reinvesting it back into the experiences and the moments that matter with the candidate.

And those moments are often the ones where it’s very human. Right? Like, I have to tell somebody no or I have to or I have to give somebody an offer. But it’s like those moments to cultivate relationships with candidates in good and bad scenarios, and building all the experience and communication and structure around that.

Like, to me, that’s where, like, really special recruiters shine. Yeah. And so, like, let’s not get bogged down with all this stuff that takes up all this time. If we can if we we can invent the capacity to free ourselves up, that’s where we should reinvest it into making the process more human, more empathetic, more structured.

And to me, that’s, like, how you deliver the best candidate experience you could possibly deliver.

Beth Wolfe
A hundred percent. Yeah. Because that’s where you make a difference. And to me, whether you hire that candidate or not, there’s so many people in my network that I never had the opportunity to hire that I still kinda keep in contact with or that I’ve recommended to other people who like, I love seeing talented people, you know, flourish even if it’s not at Daxco.

It’s it’s the feel good part of what we do. It’s like, got to be a small piece of this person’s success story, whether that’s here or somewhere else. And that is to me where we find the joy and the reward in what we do as recruiters. And so, yeah, if you can get a little bit of extra time to to connect, to have that conversation, I actually this week, I spoke with somebody who’s a former team member who’s been gone for seven years and just reconnecting with her and hearing where she’s been and where she’s up to and, you know, potentially maybe having an opportunity for her to return even if we don’t.

Like, that human element of connecting and and, again, being just a part of somebody’s story is just really cool to me.

Josh Tolan
Totally. And that’s why recruiters do what they do. Like, that’s what gets people out of the out of bed in the morning, right, for for a recruiting role. Like, nobody’s waking up saying that, you know what I can’t wait to do today is reject or filter people out or not look at certain resumes or do this.

Nobody’s waking up saying that. People are saying, like, I can’t wait to get back to this awesome candidate. I can’t wait to interview this person. I can’t wait to make this offer.

I can’t wait to connect this person with this other person I know because it might lead to something. Like Yeah. That’s what gets recruiters up in the morning. And I think, you know, I think and I wish, like, everybody, you know, to use your term, assume positive intent and really understood, like, that’s the recruiter’s motivation.

So if we know that’s the recruiter’s motivation, like, we could probably all have a little bit more empathy of all the things that they’re they’re trying to balance behind the scenes.

Beth Wolfe
Exactly. We promise, like, we don’t like ghosting. We don’t, you know, like rejecting. We love hiring. But, unfortunately, there’s there’s only so much of that to go around, but there’s definitely empathy and humanness to go around. So, you know, hopefully, we can all give each other a little bit of that.

Josh Tolan
Love it. Well, Beth, this has been great. Thank you so much. What a great, honest, open conversation.

I know our audience will take a lot away from this, especially all those that maybe are sitting where the HR team at Daxco was sitting before they brought you on where it’s like, oh my gosh. We’ve got all these things on our plate and hiring, and hiring is so hard. How do we do all these things that are expected of us when we’re all strapped so much for capacity? But I think you called out a lot of ways that that teams can not only invent that capacity, but then once they do, it’s like, how do we reinvest that into the to the areas that matter in the process?

Beth Wolfe
For sure.

Josh Tolan
Cool. Thanks so much.