Assessing for Culture Fit: Why it Matters and How to Do it Right

Relying solely on a candidate’s skills and experience is no longer a practical strategy, more often than not leading to costly mishires.

Join Spark Hire CEO, Josh Tolan, Spark Hire CRO, Gary Schwake, and Concurrency, Inc. Human Capital Director, Meghan Focht, as they explore the significance of assessing for culture fit, or cultural alignment, especially for organizations powered by their people.

During the discussion, Meghan shares Concurrency’s journey to defining their company culture and how they’ve integrated it into every stage of their hiring process.

In this session: 

• How clearly defining your culture can help identify candidates who will naturally thrive in your organization’s environment.
• The impact of poor culture fit on productivity and employee turnover, and the benefits of strong cultural alignment.
• Practical strategies for defining your company’s unique culture and values.
• Effective techniques for evaluating culture fit, including behavioral interview questions and the importance of interviewer training to mitigate bias.
• How to enable better candidate self-selection and ensure a strong mutual fit on both ends through consistent transparency.

Hello. Welcome to another edition of Let’s Talk Hiring. We’re back. And like any good Zoom meeting that always starts two or three minutes after it’s scheduled time, we’ve been pretty prompt here, so we’ll let some people pile in.

One thing that we would ask, however, is, as you’re joining in the chat, drop in from where where you are today right now, what part of the world. And if you’re a SparkHire customer, drop the little flame emoji in there. If you are by chance joining via LinkedIn, there is an opportunity to chat on the StreamYard. We will post the StreamYard, you know, excuse me, StreamYard link in the LinkedIn comments for, this event.

So if you wanna join us there, you can. And, just let us know from around the globe. We’ve got the Midwest well represented in Illinois, in Ohio, in Wisconsin with Megan. And I claim the Midwest, by the way, because as we were described, Megan and I were discussing early on, I was born in Ohio, spent some time there, went to high school in Iowa, went back to Ohio.

So, I feel like I’ve got both sides of the Midwest firmly rooted, anchored, and now I’m in Charlotte, North Carolina.

We’ll let you, we’d let you call yourself.

I I the statute of limitations is not your best. A pro Midwest guy.

We’ll allow it.

Big 10. Big 10. Yeah. There you go. Couple of Colorado.

Excellent. Alright. Well, let’s dive in. So first, let’s do quick introduction. So let’s start with our guest, Megan.

She’s kind enough to come back. And, the name may be familiar because she was also kind enough to join us on a Speed to Hire show episode. So if you’re not familiar with Speed to Hire, it’s our podcast.

Josh and Megan had a fantastic session, and and, we had so much fun. We invited her back, and she was she accepted. So we’re very thrilled with that. But Megan, just provide us, you know, the sixty second overview, yourself, kind of your your career arc very quickly, and tell us a little bit about Concurrency.

Sure. So, yeah, I I lead HR at Concurrency where we refer to it as human capital. We’re an IT consulting company that partners with Microsoft and ServiceNow.

We’re really looking to find those true partners in our clients, and we can help transform the way that they get work done.

I’ve been at Concurrency six and a half years, which is kinda wild.

Prior to that, I spent five years in hospitality in various HR roles, recruiting manager roles, then ultimately was an HR director for the InterContinental in Milwaukee before joining. And then I had previous manufacturing experience and really started my career at UCLA, managing their front desk staff of the John Wooden Center, which John Wooden alone has a lot of inspiration for culture and team building. So there’s a nice little tie in.

Man, you’ve seen a lot of different types of roles and processes, and we’re definitely gonna have to unpack that as you think about that into concurrence. That’s wonderful.

Okay. So before we dive in, we would love everybody’s feedback. So, we did a poll earlier on LinkedIn, but we wanna get your thoughts here. So tell us, what are the biggest challenges you face when assessing for culture fit?

And you can put the full text or the number, whatever whatever resonates with you. So bias or subjectivity, number one. Number two, lack of a clear definition. Three, poor interview training.

Four, misalignment team wide.

So what do we got? Actually, I can see two and four being pretty similar.

I feel like you should have had a number five. All of the above.

All the above. That’s a great point.

The HR answer, it depends.

There you go. Yeah. I think for me, it’s number two, and I think one, three, and four a lot of times are a result of number two.

Yeah.

You don’t know where you’re starting.

How can you coach people on better interviewing practices to assess for that? How can you be aligned as a team? So on and so forth. So that is definitely number two.

Yeah. Step one. Yeah. Exactly. So let’s let’s actually start there. So, I mean, speaking of definitions, we say culture fit, and then we know it depends on the firm.

But what is culture fit? What does that mean to you, Megan? And how do we think about if we’re gonna define it clearly, what are the aspects of the culture fit that we need to consider?

Yeah. I mean, when I think about it, I think about values. I think about just the way that work gets done and work is influenced at a company and really being able to communicate that, understand it.

Then you got to find the people who kind of naturally thrive in that environment. You know, there’s definitely things I’m not good at and environments that I would probably get fired from just because it would be so uncomfortable, and they wouldn’t be able to see the best version of myself. So yeah. And I and I think once you do that, then helping the people around you make sure they understand even what is fit for them.

Yeah. It’s really important. The one thing curious because you’ve you’ve been in in you just mentioned in large organizations with with many different layers and people at at different spaces in their career to now a concurrency with 75 ish employees or so at at at, you know, professional services firm. And a lot of our, you know, people tuning in, listening to I go again, tuning in. This is like this is a show.

Are are of similar sized companies. And in our experience, what we hear a lot is that, a lot of times, it isn’t well defined. And and and and when it is well defined, it’s aspirational. Right?

It’s like The posters on the wall that say this is who we are, and then you look around. I’m like, not so much. Yeah. And even this change is departmental.

So as we start to define it, I guess maybe share your experiences with whether it’s a concurrency or others that where you’ve seen it done well. Like, that this is how we describe our culture, not just the platitudes, but like how it gets done and how we hold people accountable and respecting the individual and things like that.

Yeah. I mean, I I feel like at Concurrency, we’ve been through many different versions of this, and some of them were horrible, to be honest. It’s been a journey. But we we really got over the last two years serious about this.

And it was kind of first step was what our values, you know, at one point we had 11 values. We were really proud that they came with us since the company was founded.

But they kind of, it was too much, right? Like if everything’s your focus, nothing’s your focus. So we took a pause to say, what are our values? And who are the people that we feel like are top performers who are performing the best?

What are the words that describe them is really where we started. And so we got a big long list of, okay, who are those people? How do we describe them? And then from there, we kind of lumped those words together.

And then we got it down to five. We knew that we needed just a few that kind of spoke to all of it. So as it sits today, it’s be yourself, truly just show up as who you are. I think we see that people get hired and then they get really intimidated about I’m new, you know, I might not know something, I’m afraid to ask a question, and it’s like, hey, we hired you for the skills, sure, but we hired you for you and your brain. Just show up and be yourself and we’ll meet you where you are and we’ll figure that out.

And then it’s be bold.

Our our owner and entrepreneur takes risk. He always takes takes risk. And it’s one of our favorite things about working here is that it’s not cookie cutter. We’re not trying to do it the way that a book tells us or anyone else has done it. And it’s thanks to him and his kind of bravery to go outside of the box. So that’s a big one. And we call out it has to be bravely and respectfully done.

Then it is have a growth mindset. That curiosity becomes really important to us.

And especially as consultants, it’s really what we’re paid to do is get curious and try to think about things outside of the box.

And then it’s assume positive intent, which I think is it feels like kind of an obvious one, but it might be maybe the most challenging.

And that one comes into play with our clients. A lot of times they are they’re in a mess. That’s why they hired us. And so we have to, you know, really assume positive intent and where they’re coming from and then with each other. And the best test that we have for that is after a rant or a frustrating frustrating moment, pausing someone and saying, now what would that sound like if you assume positive intent and you just see the demeanor like immediately change? Least favorite is when I get called out on that. No, I’m supposed to be perfect.

And then finally, it’s be the difference. I always think about, grew up with a big boy scouting family and it was like leave your campground better than how you found it. And that’s sort of the mentality is like, how are you leaving your coworkers, your clients, your workplace better than how you found it? And if you leave, will there be something that you did that still lives on that’s making it better?

So really identifying those helped us understand, these are the things that will allow someone to be successful. And then these are also values and traits we can look for when we’re interviewing.

From there, then we make sure our interview plan is set. We make sure all the leaders are aligned to it and supporting it and living it.

And the other thing is we have it built into our competencies. And it’s not just about our people living the values, it’s about them being a role model and then holding other people accountable to it. And that’s supporting them. Like, we’re not all gonna be shining in it. So if I am not assuming positive intent, I expect any person at our company to be like, hey, Megan. Let’s help you get back on track here.

So yeah. So kind of a big long answer, but that’s what we’re doing today, and we’re starting to see that really work out. Our people will consistently say the best thing about working at Concurrency is the amazing people that they work with. And that shines kind of in every day that I come to work to.

Yeah, one one thought is, for those listening, if you have your top three to five, put those in the chat, we’d love to see them, whatever those may be. And then related to that is in Josh jump in here, but maybe talk a little bit about those those five. But then how do you you talked about actually now building this into the process and making it part of your competencies? And how do you how did you go about actually doing that and then creating consistent rubrics? Because some of that stuff, like, do you rate presume positive intent as an example? How would you explore that and and identify that somebody is is has that mindset?

And real quick, Megan, before we get into that, you know, I think it’d be really helpful because we’re talking about what culture fit is, and you’re demonstrating how it’s defined a concurrency.

You guys are a professional service firm so you’re what we would refer to as a people powered organization in which the people’s expertise is essentially the service of the company. And so I think it’s also important for us to define like why culture fit is so important for the success of an organization like yours. So you guys have obviously put a lot of work into this by going through multiple iterations of it. So clearly, it’s important to you all. So I’d love to hear why it’s so important in your type of environment.

Yeah. So it’s interesting because I was trying to prep for this because I was kinda nervous. And I was like, okay. I gotta be ready. And I was looking at articles. And, of course, we see all those articles where companies with strong culture have better engagement and the the money always follows.

And I just kept thinking about, like, a rowboat analogy. Right? And we all know, like, you gotta be rowing in the right direction.

But if you think about it too, like, that has to be the same type of or, and it has to be the same type of style.

And like everyone can look different and they can have their different personalities, but the oars have to be moving at the same time and sort of the same style. So like that to me was a great analogy of why culture fit is so important. It’s like, if you can naturally find those people who go, hey, this exciting. This is exactly how I operate. This is how I think.

Then that robo gets to go faster. Things go smoother.

And I saw an article in the Harvard Business Review that called out, like, it’s easy to feel like that is hindering DEI and diversity, but it’s not. Right? Like the way that you think, the way that you approach work, the way that you challenge each other, psychological safety needs to be a part of that.

But you can bring a lot of different backgrounds and experiences into that as well. But that is a good gut check to make sure your culture and how you describe it allows that.

But I think that’s the importance of it. Know, it’s it’s I’m not looking to find the smartest person if they operate in a totally different way or value very different things. We’ll never see the value of that really smart person if they’re not working with each other in in the way that we need to.

So yeah. So I think that value is there. And I’m sure people listening or watching or whatever it is and and all of you, you can think about those times where you’re like, this person was supposed to be, like such an awesome hire. Why didn’t it work out? And you’re just like, oh, they just had a different approach or a different value. And and so it is just important to to think about it. It makes your organization stronger, better, and able to endure harder times too.

Yep. That makes a lot of sense. I think that’s where culture fit is often misdefined is it’s it’s in the word fit. I think people often will apply that to do they fit in to your point with DEI, and that’s not really what we’re assessing here what we’re assessing here is we’ve got a core set of values can this person or does this person demonstrate the behavioral competencies are consistent with those values and will they thrive in the very specific type of environment and operating model that we have as a business and if all of those things are true that person is in a pretty good position to be successful within the company. So that’s one thing I’ve been throwing around a little bit is and I know we titled this workshop around culture fit but it’s more to me culture alignment. To your point of having all the oars rowing in the same direction that’s what culture fit is more to me is it’s about alignment rather than fit. And I think fit is often where definitions go around.

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. It’s interesting too because I feel like many HR people probably have a mild version of PTSD when you hear culture fit. Like, I think about hospitality and, like, years ago before maybe we’ve taken as much time to really analyze it, It was like kinda used as the scapegoat for managers to just be like, I don’t think they’re a fit. You know, I didn’t vibe with them.

I you know, it’s like this loose bag thing that they can just slap on the interview to be like, out. I don’t like it. Or alternatively, that’s the person we need. They’re a fit.

Right? So I know that there were times where, like, we would train our teams to be like, you can’t say that. You you can’t use that. That’s not a thing.

And it’s been really cool to see since then how much information has evolved to really understand what does that mean and then define it to then, Gary, to your point, really going through and saying, what does this mean? And in our interview training, we address this. You know, we go through each value. We talk about questions or scenarios that might speak to that. So you said assume positive intent. My favorite thing is to ask someone, you know, tell me about your gut drop moment. That moment where something went totally wrong, you made a huge mistake and you just like instantly know it’s you.

And in the way that they describe that, you’ll hear very quickly how they’re taking accountability, how they’re sort of interacting or, you know, if someone else was part of the mistake, how they talk through that.

So those are some things that we do for that.

Even thinking about, tell me about because after I ask that, I gotta give them a break. So then I’ll say, when when have you been tell me about a time you’ve been the most proud of your work where you feel like the best version of you shine. So even in those situations, just listening for, okay, how are they describing the other people that they’re working with? How are they describing the conflict?

Are they sort of detailing how that other entity might have approached it, which is why it’s a problem and not just the person is the problem. So, yeah, so we train that. We talk about it with each of our values. And then we also, in the interview plan, when we’re scoping the position with the manager, we’re very intentional about, okay, who do you want in the interview process? At what stage?

And then what specifically are you asking them to vet?

And we make sure that we detail that and bullet it and that there aren’t any gaps. That each person knows, okay, Megan’s gonna cover assume positive intent or be yourself. I’ve gotta really focus on the be bold and the technical skill, like, and I don’t have to worry about the rest. However, if someone says something that shows me that, oh, they’re not really being themselves, I can call it out because they know it’s important.

Yeah. You actually started to go where we’re gonna go next, which is we’re gonna we’re gonna, like, consider this the teardown moment. Right? Because I think you just described why concurrency is good at assessing cultural fit because you’ve literally baked it into the process, but not just baked it into the process at which stages and how you’re gonna do it and who’s responsible for it. So presumably, you didn’t start there. So tell us a little bit about your journey and and, you know, because I think as we think about this, I’m thinking of you there’s a lot of things we need to review, right? There’s especially in your case, there’s raw technical ability, which isn’t necessarily easy to discern.

There is, there is there are speaking of alignment, there could very well be like, this is the way that we operate and they may perhaps they do that with clients, but maybe internally working with team members, they don’t for whatever reason. And so there could be places where, you know, that you’re starting getting gradings of scale, which one of these is more important?

So just as, you know, as you think about that and we’ll focus in on the cultural aspect of this, but talk us a little bit through like where you were and how you evolved that process.

And Josh, if you want to give some color on that, please do but No I think that’s I think that’s a great starting point is just taking it from the top like you clearly put a lot of time into defining what culture fit looks like and I think you hit it something that probably a lot of the viewers can resonate with them which is everybody’s had the manager that wanted to you know terminate somebody because poor culture fit or didn’t want to hire somebody because poor culture fit or vice versa wanted to hire somebody because of good culture fit but the reality is like that manager doesn’t have that right to do that until it’s actually been defined like if they can’t tell you why and as a company we haven’t defined that that just can’t be a reason so it starts with defining what that is for your organization So I know you gave a little bit of context on it but maybe starting from the top of like Gary said where you were, the approach you took to define it at the organizational level and then I’d be curious if when you were working with the managers at the team level if there were anything that was specific culture fit wise to different teams or was it just like you know a blanket across the organization?

Yeah, great questions. I think like the first thing I think about is just in any when you’re the recruiting manager or the HR person helping the hiring manager, there’s always these asks that they have, and you you sort of have to dig in and be like, what are you actually asking for? And hospitality is probably the most obvious.

In an interview, someone might be like, do you have a car? And you’re just like kicking them under the table. Like, you can’t ask that.

What you want to know is do you have reliable transportation to get you here on time? Right? And then they’re like, oh, yeah. That’s what I’m looking for.

Or, you know, the ask of like, hey, we’re hiring bellman. We need, like, really strong young men. And I’m like, okay, so you’re looking for someone who can lift 100 pounds or more who has the stamina. Is that correct?

Oh, yeah. Okay. So we can find that in a lot of different packages of a person. So sometimes, you know, they’re just not connecting those dots.

And I like to say, hey, we’re your lawyer in a way. Like, you should be completely honest with me and then let me help you frame that up. And I think culture fit is the same. You know?

It’s like, what what are you really afraid of? What are you really worried about? Give me the raw thing.

Don’t worry about if you get in trouble, right? Because we’re gonna learn the appropriate way to get that and also how you phrase it so you actually get what you want because you might not get it otherwise.

Can I can I pause you right there real quick because you you said something that just, like, resonated? And I’m I’m gonna go back to what you said earlier, Megan, which is when you started to define culture fit, you you started with, well, let’s go to what we all agree is good. Right? And let’s describe the person.

And then in those raw descriptions, we start to pull out the themes. Like, what are the core elements that create that that they may exhibit themselves a little bit differently across people, but we’re hearing these common themes. It it sounds like very similar here. Right? It’s like, give me that raw component, and then let’s pull out those core themes.

And I think that’s where a lot of people get tied up in knots is we we we have the the general statements about what good looks like, but we haven’t gone that layer deeper of what how will we see it exhibited.

And and it sounds like that’s the problem.

I also feel like, as HR professionals, we are sometimes guilty of trying to, like, place policy or place standards down and then get everyone aligned to it.

And it’s interesting because I have a payroll and benefits specialist who’s newer and so she’s just learning my style.

And she came very much from the traditional, like, is the law. So this is what we do. We do nothing more.

And I just get so frustrated when we can’t do something that we know is right or we can’t do something that kind of everyone else wants to. And so now that I’ve been able to be in this position of leader and create these things, it’s really important to me to understand, okay, what are people naturally going to want to do? And I guess pulling it back to a culture standpoint, one guiding piece of that for me is always, okay, our owner started this company thirty six years ago. It’s owned by one single person.

He’s still involved with the company, which is just a gift in itself. But I always think about, okay, if Jim was standing in front of our employee right now who is going through whatever, what would he naturally be wanting to do? And he naturally wants to take care of people. And so how do we make sure our policies and everything allows that to happen?

And as we grow, we don’t end up with all this red tape that actually kind of dilutes the core of what we were built on.

And that’s something you have to think about with the culture. And I think as you grow too, that’s kind of what we experienced. We started out really small for many years. We were under 10 people, grew to 40 for a little while. One of our biggest clients went in a different direction. At that point, we decided to join with Microsoft and really be that partner and ride that wave.

We had a ton of success. Lots of Microsoft Partner of the Year awards grew and grew and grew sort of at the partnership of Microsoft of them handing us work.

And so it grew faster than we were able to handle it. And so when that happens, you’re not thinking about those things. You’re not thinking about what are the core things that made us successful in the beginning and how do we preserve it. Because like you said in the beginning, it’s not enough to just say it. It’s not enough to just have the poster. We all know those inspirational posters with the black edging and the inspirational quote and the mountains.

But it’s not effective. So yeah, we learned that the hard way and we hired leaders who had impressive resumes and for their one thing that they’re doing really great.

But then all of a sudden we have these leaders who all had different approaches and different values. And some of them were still reporting to our owner, and then we had kind of created these other reporting structures.

And then at one point, we didn’t even have like one leader managing everyone and kind of making sure everyone’s on the same page too, because you wanna have a lot of different ideas. You know, that’s a good thing.

But at the end of the day, you need the one person that goes, okay. I heard all of you, all valid, and this is the direction we’re gonna go, and this is why. So we kinda lost that. And then we were just moving at such a quick pace. We were just trying to keep up.

We started to feel those cracks, say, like, as you were saying, Gary, like teams had different cultures. Some teams were really close and felt really supported by their managers. Some did not at all.

We had areas of people who still were really loud about feedback and communication. We had some that were afraid to say anything. There was not psychological safety. So yeah, it an interesting journey to be a part of.

And we kind of just kept chipping away at what we could. And I think that’s what kept me here this whole time is my boss who was leading HR, who is now the you know, we would just identify where these these really big pain points are for the company and then go, okay. What is available to us now? You know, it’s like we always learn about top down.

You gotta fix it from the top. Well, sometimes that’s not available to you at the moment. So you go and you say, okay, what’s the next best move we can make and start to move in that direction?

Really important to us to have people grown from within the company. So I think we spent a lot of time too trying to bring someone, lift someone up and make that work.

Because also I think we were a little gun shy from bringing in the big impressive people from the outside and thinking they’d understand our world.

And then we finally got to a point where we did have leaders that were aligned. And we you know, and our executive team reported straight to one person who, if we ever were talking about each other behind each other’s backs, she was like, get in here.

Everybody in the room.

It is. We’re getting through it.

Our boss used to say, let’s pull all the liars in one room. Yeah.

Like, what are we doing if we’re not just tackling it?

So, that started to become clear that it was maybe the moment that we could start building that foundation in really like the best practice way, which even when I got my SHRM certification, I remember my shout out to my CERT group because we were just laughing. It’s like WWSD, what would Charm do with all the right amount of money and all the right amount of HR ratio and all of the very supportive managers. It’s like you barely ever get to work in that environment. But I do feel really lucky that we got to a point where we could build off of that.

And now we do that. And I remember one specific moment where I was like, oh, it’s happening. You know, we had an employee tell me that he heard another employee sort of not living our values and challenged him on it and was like, how can I help you? And said, like, we don’t do that here.

What do you what’s going on? And I’m like, for me to say it. But when you start to see that happen, that’s when when I was like, okay, we can start to really build off of this, build those processes.

Yeah. You said something in the podcast that I apps as a fellow leader absolutely loved, which is clear is kind.

Oh, Brene Brown, shout out.

Love that. And that’s something we say often and not just me because everyone would expect it from me.

But we say clear is kind a lot. We say feedback is a gift a lot, which I know is kind of an eye roll thing, but it’s not just coming from me.

We live and die by radical candor, refer to the love bucket, which is a big term from my boss. And I tried to like, professionalize it. I was like, maybe it’s called trust capital. And then we’re like, it’s just a love bucket, like get over it.

Have you built a love bucket before you’re going and giving hard feedback? Then you can’t quite give that hard feedback yet.

And then the assumed positive intent and what would it sound like? Like, those are all pieces of our vernacular now that aren’t just coming from me. So, of course, as an HR person, I, like, very nerdy and excited about it.

Well, that was a great story because I think you shed some light on the ramifications of when you haven’t defined culture fit as an organization when you guys were stumbling along and trying to figure it out versus when you turn the corner and the positive signs that culture fit has been defined. Thanks for sharing that. And I think next, Gary, it’d be great if we just jumped into hiring. Right? So we’re starting a hiring process, have an open role. Can you take us through from the culture fit standpoint, like, how are you factoring that into the kickoff and then just flowing through the rest of the hiring process?

Yeah. So it starts with scoping. So if we hear that there’s a need, whether it’s for a hard rack or for a soft pipeline where we’re just proactively looking, we do a scoping call. So we gotta get really clear with that manager.

What are you looking at? And it’s not just about skill set. And that’s where like, I’ll generally sit in those meetings with our recruiters so that I can speak to, hey, you’ve got a lot of this personality on the team. What about this?

We have a lot of heads down workers, but we need someone who is a little bit more visionary, who can guide the customers through some of these tough things or you know, really thinking about that team dynamic and what might be needed. We have a lot of people the same. Maybe we need someone a little bit different or vice versa. So we add that into just like how we’re even saying what we need.

Then once we have that scoping call, then we’re building that interview plan. So the recruiter is listening to what they’re saying they’re looking for. We talk to them in that scoping call about who do you want involved, what stages.

We also have started for senior roles and above. We do on-site. So we got away from on-site with COVID. We do hire in a lot of different locations, so we weren’t doing that. And then all of a sudden, like two years ago, one of our architects was like, hey, why don’t we should probably bring people on-site. Like, it’s really important to, like, have that face to face and really get to see how they show up in that way, which I think was a great point, especially considering we’re consultants, and so people pay a lot of money for our presence. So I thought that was a great kind of comeback ad for those roles we do in on-site interviews to try to figure out, okay, who’s on-site.

And then that’s where we put the content. Like, what are they screening for? And then we’re making sure, okay, are all the things covered? Are our values covered?

And then I’m a part right now, the size we are, I’m a part of every interview. So I’m sort of that last person to go, okay. Do they have all of our values? Are they looking for an environment where they get to be a little bit scrappy?

And they don’t necessarily have such clearly defined roles, which allows them to pick up the shovel in other areas and have access to it.

Where they have to be a little bit more vocal and proactive about what they want, because we’re not some big company with a career plan that you can just like check the boxes. I did it. Now I get the promotion.

So those are things that then I always make sure are a part of my interview kind of as that last stamp. And then we do an interview training too. So anyone who’s gonna be on that interview list has to have attended our interview training, which, like I said, it goes through our values. It goes through how do we identify values in a candidate either from questioning or just some of the casual things they might say. All the compliance is obviously in there.

But then we also leave time for our people to share stories too, like when have you been the most challenged in your interview process?

What questions are you not sure if you can ask? Let’s talk about it.

Sort of the, hey, if you’re finding yourself asking the, do you have a car? Like, consider why you’re asking it. So we kinda help them understand to go through that process. Like, okay, I’m asking them, like, where they’re from. Why am I asking that? I just want to get to know them, is there a different question I could ask, right?

So which I think is really hard to for people when you’re trying to make that small talk and also assess culture fit and also look at sort of non work related things outside of the job. And so some of it too is just sort of putting them at ease. Like, hey, it’s not gonna be a perfect thing. You might not ask the right question, but it’s also really important that we make sure that person feels safe because people start to go after companies or start to question intention when they don’t feel respected, when they don’t feel understood. And so also just making sure that they understand the demeanor, the how you react. And then also for us on the back end, the recruiters and myself, making sure that the reasoning of why we’re letting someone go or off the hook in the process is sound and is backed by information, and we challenge the the leaders. That’s the ultimate protection.

So it’s such a balance there because people can get kind of freaked out, and then they’re not necessarily gonna be able to assess the best. And then we do a debrief. So anyone who’s a part of the process gets on the phone call. This one tends to be the hardest one to keep when we’re trying to move fast. So we try to schedule it right when we start the process. We try to get, like, four weeks out of debrief schedule so we just know we have that space.

And then, yeah, then we make then we make the call and then hopefully onboard them well.

Megan, can I I wanna I’d like to go back to the because there’s themes throughout that, go back to the scoping session? And this will apply throughout the process as well. Is is there have you established over time some documentation or frameworks or things that you know, as for special especially for those who are hiring at concurrency, maybe hiring for the first time ever, and especially at concurrency, just to give them like, okay, here’s the structure. Like, here’s how we’re gonna approach this process and need your input on what you think that looks like. Have you have you developed something like that?

And then does that then begin to serve as a as a, you know, the the blueprint for then how this is actually gonna play out?

Yeah. So earlier this year, like, I pulled up my recruiters and then we just, like, the whiteboard behind me was just, like, littered in stuff you couldn’t even understand just to kinda go through each step.

So we really did kind of think about this. And then as we started to put these plans together, it has kind of been created as a template. Right? Like, my thing is usually the same.

Usually, the technical piece has some of the similar elements, and then we just sub out some of the actual skill sets that we need. The hiring manager phone screen, you know, they screen the profile that the managers or the recruiter sends over, but then they have their own phone call or or Teams meeting. Or if they’re local, we do just, a kinda more casual coffee meeting sometimes. But those things are generally the same.

So now we have that template we can work off of. The other thing I forgot that we added so we started to kick off this process, and then we had some of our interviewers start to go like, hey. I don’t I wanna know more about, like, what everyone else is doing, which helped kinda filter that sending out the plan. And then one of our employees was like, hey, here’s something we used to use that we give to the candidates.

So then we took our interview plan and some of that document, and now we send that plan to the candidate because that’s another big problem in just getting the best people. You know, having your choice as a company, you have to make sure that experience is good. So giving them the layout of, like, this is what the plan is. This is when you’d be on-site.

This is if you make it all the way through, this is what you can expect.

Yeah.

But that all came kind of organic too of just, like, making sure everyone knows you can critique this. You know, this isn’t just, like, our thing that we’re making that you have to follow.

If you think it’s not effective or you find it awkward, we wanna hear about that, and then we wanna see if we can we can do something. So we’re starting now to, like, really get those templates and then tweaking some things too.

Got it. So speaking of templates and frameworks, you mentioned that you are a part of every interview and are assessing candidates for their alignment with values and all the things that make up CultureFit. You also mentioned that there are other stakeholders, maybe more than just the hiring manager that are part of the interview process, and you’re assigning different values for different people to assess for. So have you created scorecards or what documentation have you made for the team? Or maybe it’s the training that you do with all the interviewers of, like, how do we identify? How do we look for signals that somebody aligns with this value or that they demonstrate these behavior?

Yeah. You know, we don’t have it yet, like, where you can really pull the data and and do it. So we still need the conversations, but we do have in our applicant tracking system, we use Lever, and that we have interview templates that get assigned to each of us. So I have, like, the HR, HC director for whatever role. So it has a drop down with some questions I might ask and then sort of the final recommendation. And then we also say, like, if you’re not recommending for this position, but you still think that they would be good, there’s kind of a box to explain that.

So, yeah, that’s that’s kinda how we approach that. And then I was thinking about something else when you were talking, but I don’t think I can remember it.

No. Well, I’m sure it’ll come back to you. Yeah. So with the other interviewers that are assessing for culture fit, like you said, you’re assigning some values for them. Are you prescribing to them which questions they should ask, or are you just helping them form those?

Or how do Yeah.

So we generally, just give them the themes, and we haven’t gotten to the point where we’re giving, like, you have to ask this question.

A lot of times managers will have their own rubric, and we just work with them so that it’s not a surprise. We understand it. We can kind of vet that out and make sure we’re aligned to it.

And then in some of the templates, we do have suggested questions. So if you’re really kind of stuck, there is some guide. It’s really important to me that we don’t get so prescriptive that it doesn’t allow for other people’s style to come into play because as to our point, like, there’s the company culture and then every manager is a filter for their team. So they can either filter down that culture with maybe a little different twist or they can filter down a completely different culture that was never intended.

So we still want that twist. We still want everyone to be able to put their stamp on it and have that freedom. And I think that’s part of the be bold and the entrepreneurial spirit that comes from our owner that infuses into our culture. So, yeah, so you’ll never see us being like, stick to the questions. But the training then becomes even more important.

Right. So it’s it’s it’s more coaching them on don’t ask a yes or no question on if they align with this core value.

Yeah. Exactly.

Behavioral based interview.

Yes. We would see a lot of people, start the interview just with a lot of information. Like, you know, you kick it off and you just start going, hey. This is what we’re looking for. This is what our challenges are, and then asking the questions. And that was a simple, like, hey.

Good information, but, like, let’s place that later because you don’t wanna necessarily give the answers to the person of exactly what you’re looking for.

And I remember what I was gonna say, our interview process is longer.

And people have shared that as a challenge, but I think ultimately it doesn’t mark us down like we do a candidate survey and that usually doesn’t bring it down too much, maybe occasionally.

But I don’t care because I think it’s really important that that candidate also has a lot of time to understand if we’re the right fit. It’s not like how can you in two thirty minute meetings know that this is the right place for you? You know? And so we want people really curious about, well, who is your leader and why there?

Why do you say? Like, also, they need to have a lot of questions in each interview too. So I’ve definitely taken people out of the running who didn’t have any questions. And I’m like, even just as a person, they should have questions.

Like, there’s a lot to me even. Right? Like, I just think, like, if you don’t have any questions about the job anymore, you can certainly ask about the person or their experience in the company.

But yeah. So so it’s sort of intentionally long just because we feel like we really got to make sure this is an important relationship that we cannot rush.

Yeah I think that’s a great point too is that it’s a two way street culture fit and so we’ve talked a lot about how are you guys defining it how are you identifying in the hiring process but as you just mentioned it’s also very important that a candidate can identify it for themselves so they can continue to self select into your hiring process and maybe eventually join the company. So what are some of the ways that you guys give candidates the information so they can, know, make the right decisions about whether or not the culture fit is right for them?

Yeah. I think what’s really helped us, more than anything is, just our transparency of our leaders. You know, we have been through so much as a company, and there was a point kind of in that flux where, you know, we were still trying to paint it a little bit rosy.

But then we would experience the person who came in like, I didn’t sign up for this. Like, what’s going on? You guys are going through massive change or this stuff isn’t there. In some cases, we didn’t even know. Right? Like, we were still trying to uncover what was happening. So by the time that person got hired and, like, by time they were settled, like, information came as a different picture than how we imagined it.

But because we all lived through that, everyone on the executive team has been with the company for maybe even longer than I have. So we’ve all kind of lived through all of this. We are overly transparent. It is almost like we’re trying to convince people not to come because we’re like, you need to wanna sign up for professional services, first of all, even if we’re, like, in the best position ever. Professional services is hard and it’s stressful and it’s got high highs and low lows.

And you also have to be bold enough to guide a client through some of this. So it’s just hard in nature.

But we still are on our journey to grow. We wanna really grow over the next five years. We’re still shedding some of our old stuff. So we really wanna make sure that that’s clear. And I think by doing that, we can see how they react to it. There’s a lot of people who go, that’s awesome.

I was in this bigger company and I couldn’t figure out the value that I brought to the company or I couldn’t figure out how my decisions tied to a bigger impact. Like, welcome to concurrency. There’s not many of us. Like, you’re gonna feel that.

So that becomes a huge advantage. But I just think that transparency becomes so important. I know people who kind of feel like we gotta we gotta sell the client. Right? And yes, but it’s really about being honest about what’s happening here and making sure that they are energized by that.

And we take that attitude even to our current employees. I think last time I was on the podcast, I talked about a personal engagement forum. We’re kind of in the throes of going through that now. But if our employees aren’t waking up every morning and going, this is exactly where I’m supposed to be, like, I want them to think about if this is the right place for them.

And I want them to include us in that conversation because sometimes there’s tweaks that are really easy for us to make that they feel like might be impossible. So come, let us be a part of this journey. And if the journey is ultimately like, I’m not excited to come to work every day, we’re gonna help you figure out your next step. We’re not afraid of that.

Like, life is short.

No one can advocate for for you like you can. And so just getting to that honest truth really becomes super important in this process.

Gary, that reminds me of Gary’s got a great saying Gary’s our CRO so he oversees our whole go to market team and one of his many great quotes is enable the buyer to buy and so like you said it’s not just like try and sell the client on x y and z. It’s enable them to make a good decision and the right decision for their business and give them the information to do so.

Absolutely. Yeah. That’s a good point. We approach that in our sales process too. It’s like we’re not just trying to sell to sell and have them like, we wanna know that it’s an actual pain.

And we want to be advisors to our clients where we’re not just shoving something down your throat that you don’t need. Like we want to be the ones to even be like, it doesn’t sound like this is actually your priority. Like it doesn’t sound like this might be the best use of your money, even if it means, hey, you’re not gonna work with us right now. That honesty and partnership definitely carries through that process as well.

Yeah.

And you brought up actually, this is a really good point that Logan just raised is, enjoy when a candidate asked the universe the interviewer, why did you choose to work here and why are you still here? That’s a Nice. Really good point. And it’s related to that, which is this you know, and you you mentioned that the candidate asking questions, great example, Logan, is a very important part of your process, but also building that into your process so that you make it easy for them and almost to encourage them Not just ask the questions. Well, yeah, I got my prefabricated list of questions that I know I’m supposed to ask, but genuine, authentic.

Like, I I’m I’m I’m doing my own due diligence. Help I understand and building that into the process.

So you you talked a lot about transparency in the process itself and with the culture of the firm and things like that, and you’re putting that right out upfront because to your point, you want them to to opt into that.

How are maybe weaving in that that potential for making it more of a a dialogue, throughout the process? Are there specific things that you do in the process to encourage that or or reinforce that so that they feel safe to be able to maybe ask some tough questions?

Yeah, nothing too formal. I think in the training, definitely talk about the importance of questions. And then in the debriefs, we’re talking about like, hey, this person didn’t ask me this question or they asked this question about, like, very strict work hours. And, like, the fact that they’re asking that question might feed to maybe a not a culture fit for some of our situations. Like, we need people who can be there for the client in some cases at different times. So we just we train it, and then we really try to make sure too that we’re realistic about how much we’re asking. Like, I think sometimes I only ask, like, three questions.

And at that halfway mark, try to stop and give the floor back to the candidate to ask questions, especially because I’m at the end. So I’m like wanting to make sure if there’s any loose ends there, that it’s covered. And I love this question that Logan brought up because when it’s asked to me, it feels like a gut check to me. It kind of feels like that personal engagement forum to me.

And through some of the toughest times where maybe we were doing layoffs or I was spending my day, like, not in very energizing, happy things. It was a really great gut check for me. And I’m not good at being fake, which is a strength that can sometimes really bite me. They sort of fix your face advice has given to me in the past.

But I love it because it does make me go, okay, but what are the things that are making me stay through these really hard times?

And it’s being heard, it’s being supported by my team. It’s the fact that we know where the pain points are and we’re acknowledging it and we’re working towards it.

And I’ve seen that even in our company where it hasn’t always been easy, but we’ve almost gotten stronger as we’ve gotten more clear about who we are because people want to be with each other that have the same values and attention towards it. Then it becomes a lot more obvious who doesn’t fit in that too.

Yeah. And I think that’s such a good point is you gotta give people the good, bad, and the ugly during the interview process.

And to your point, like, were some times that were a little bumpier, but you’re still there, and you’re still there for a reason.

So in some ways, to be able to share the bad and the ugly, but also the good of why you’re still there and sticking through that and you stuck through those tough times. In a lot of ways that tells actually a more compelling and authentic story to a candidate. And for some candidates it might scare them off.

Yeah. For sure.

That’s fun.

That’s good. Yeah. That’s good.

And, like, as we think about, like, okay, how did how did we get there? It’s really interesting because there was a point in time where it was really challenging for us to feel comfortable being transparent to our current people. And some of it was, like, just trying to get our heads wrapped around it, right? So making sure we’re sharing like the actual true picture.

But then also when we figured it out at the time, it wasn’t great. And so we really had to be bold and just kind of trust the process, trust our people, and put some of our financials that were challenging at the time out there. Put some like call out the elephant in the room that is not good.

Our engagement score from our engagement survey was horrible. Right? But the things that were being called out were things we already knew and were working towards. It’s just change takes so much time. But we really had to be okay with being honest with our people before we could ever fix that from a candidate process. And so now everyone can feel very free because they’re all getting that information in the all company meeting and in their team meeting, and it’s not a secret.

And so even it’s not just me that can be that transparent. It’s now the employees that are helping vet the skill sets who know that they can be that transparent because it’s it’s common knowledge around here.

Here’s another saying for you, Josh.

This is I’ve proved this to my dad. The things from which we learn the most are often the most painful and the most expensive. Know. Mostly.

Running, time, whatever. But if you think about it, think about the places where everything’s going right, you actually don’t learn a lot. Yeah. Right?

When things are hard, you learn a ton because you have to fight your way through it. And what you just described, but you you we as humans, we were willing to do that in an environment where we know we could trust them. Yeah. Like, we’re to your point.

So you you were exposing like, hey, it’s gonna be hard. There’s a lot going on here. Like, here’s where we are.

And Yeah. Yeah. The analogy I always use because I love analogies so much is and I say this to the managers. It’s like, and I think this applies to any company right now because of how unpredictable our world has been, is we need the leaders that people wanna follow into the dark forest.

We cannot see what the heck is happening in there and it feels scary, but I know this person, I trust them. They’re gonna take the first step. They’re gonna check it out. They’re not gonna tell me to come along if it’s not good.

Like I’m following them. And then hopefully we get to a point where there’s less trees, the sun’s coming up a little bit, but like we need those people that we’re just like, whatever you’re gonna, I trust you and you’re gonna tell me when I shouldn’t.

Yeah. That’s great. Awesome. That’s a great segue. It looks like somebody needs to paint you on Teams. So that tells us that’s our call that we’re wrapping. Yeah.

So, well, this is wonderful, Megan. Thank you. Just so much from which we can learn. Really appreciate you sharing all of those pieces.

Loved how you, you know, stepped us through the process and brought that together. And for those that, had to drop early or had additional questions, we’re gonna be, synthesizing this down to some of the key points, providing the full recording. Again, it would love really encourage you to connect with myself, but most importantly, Megan and Josh. The links are in there for the in StreamYard in the comments as well as on LinkedIn.

So I’d love to to do that. So, Megan, any parting wisdom for us before we sign off for the day?

Gosh, my favorite thing that my husband always says is, no one actually knows what they’re doing, you know? And so I think it’s like for right now, I’m feeling pretty good about this. But, you know, that usually means you’re about to be humbled. So I would love all connections.

I love to grow my network. I love to hear about what’s working for other people, and what might not be working that maybe I suggested today. But, yeah, thank you. This is a great experience, I had a lot of fun.

So appreciate it.

Megan. It was awesome.

Yeah. So hang on for a second. But for everybody else, really appreciate you joining today. Have a wonderful week and weekend as it’s coming up. Thank you so much.