Competency-Based Hiring: Developing a More Inclusive and Accessible Candidate Experience

Summary

Merit America is a nonprofit organization that is closing the opportunity gap at scale by preparing talented workers in low-wage roles for well-paying careers. Further, its mission is to break the cycle of poverty and build a new pathway to the middle class for tens of millions of Americans.

In this episode of The Speed to Hire Show, Katie Rakusin, the Senior Director of Talent Acquisition at Merit America, sits down with Spark Hire CEO, Josh Tolan, to delve into the challenges and strategies of recruiting for a fully remote, nonprofit organization, including assessing candidates’ ability to thrive in a remote setting and ensuring their genuine interest in the organization’s mission.

Notes

As the Senior Director of Talent Acquisition at Merit America, Katie Rakusin leads all recruiting strategies and efforts including the development of its competency hiring framework and heavy focus on the candidate experience, highlighting Merit America’s commitment to treating all candidates with respect and providing a fair opportunity.

Katie is dedicated to designing efficient processes to support the organization’s continued growth and ensuring Merit America’s hiring process is equitable, inclusive, and accessible. This includes implementing more intentional job descriptions, accessible information formats, skills-based hiring, anonymized applications, and competency-based assessment.

JOSH TOLAN: Well, Katie, welcome. We’ll love to get started by having you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yes, of course. So my name is Katie Rackeson and I am currently the Senior Director of Talent Acquisition at Merit America. I started my career as a teacher, so I taught special education in DC public schools. And then when I was thinking about leaving the classroom, I was looking at other opportunities and kind of accidentally stumbled into talent acquisition. I thought I was interviewing for a student recruitment job at a this big charter school system and got hired and turns out I was a staff recruiter. And so I led a recruitment team for a charter school system for about 12 years and then came to Merit America in August of 2022 as their founding director of talent acquisition. And Merit America is a national nonprofit that offers sustainable skills training and best-in-class coaching to adults in low-wage roles, really preparing talented workers for well-paying careers in tech. And so our aim is to break the cycle of poverty and build new pathways to the middle class for tens of millions of Americans. I’m really excited. I love my job. My team is on the hook for finding and selecting great people to come to Merit. And I feel really fortunate to have only led talent acquisition teams for organizations that have really wonderful missions.

JOSH: Yeah, that’s great. I mean, first of all, great story for how you ended up in talent acquisition, but it’s really cool when you can find a passion in your career like talent acquisition, but couple it with an organization that you can be really prideful about as far as the purpose and what you’re doing each and every day. So tell me a little bit about Merit America in terms of number of employees and what your team looks like today from a size standpoint.

KATIE RAKUSIN: We go.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah, so we’re a relatively small organization. We have about 220 employees. When I joined back in August of 2022, we had about 100 employees. So we have more than doubled in my time here. And right now, the talent acquisition team is myself and my senior talent acquisition partner. So we are a small but mighty team. And it’s like the right size for the amount of hiring we’re doing.

JOSH: Totally. And where are you guys remote or hybrid?

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yes, so we are a fully remote organization. Yeah, so we’re fully remote.

JOSH: Cool, yeah, that’s what I thought. Just wanted to confirm. you went, you came from a K through 12 environment and then you were recruiting in K through 12. That’s obviously a lot of on-site positions. What are the differences that you’ve noticed in transitioning to a company that’s fully remote versus talent acquisition for an organization that’s all in person?

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah, so, you know, I’m not gonna lie, being fully remote gives us an incredible advantage in accessing talent nationwide. We’re not just, you know, specific to a city or a state. And, you know, we have to really bake into our hiring process questions that evaluate a candidate’s ability to thrive in an environment that is remote. So looking at their communication styles, are they proactive, right? Do they have that ability to work independently? Do they have familiarity with Google Suite? And we also have to be really intentional at the application stage when we’re reviewing applications and making sure that we are weeding through the applications for people who are really excited about our mission and not just excited about that remote flexibility piece. And so it was definitely a switch, going from recruiting teachers in a pandemic world to recruiting folks to work at a remote organization. And there are definitely some challenges, but I really do love that we have a larger talent pool to kind of consider.

JOSH: Yeah, totally. I think you bring up a really good point there too with, you know, look, remote work. Obviously it blew up during the pandemic. A lot of companies are returning to the office or have implemented some type of hybrid environment. So remote work is back to being a perk for a lot of organizations. And so I think it’s really important for you guys as such a purpose-driven organization, as you mentioned, to evaluate.

KATIE RAKUSIN: you

JOSH: Does a candidate want to be here because they’re really excited about what we’re doing or are they more interested in the fact that we’re a remote organization? So how do you go through that in the screening process?

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah, so we have to be really intentional as we’re reviewing our applications and as we’re looking at our interview process. here, can we stop? Can you repeat your question? I feel like I was like, did I already answer that one?

JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, I’ll start over. So I think you bring up a really important point, which is there are a lot of candidates that will look at remote work as a perk of an organization. Obviously it was something that was really big during the pandemic. It’s slowed down a little bit now with a lot of organizations returning to the office or going hybrid or whatever it is. So a lot of candidates are attracted by a remote.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Okay.

JOSH: work environment. But for you guys, you’re such a purpose-driven organization, it’s really important that you find people and you bring people on board that are excited about what you’re doing and aren’t just excited to come work there because it’s a remote environment. So I’m just curious in the hiring process, particularly in the screening process, how are you deciphering that? Right? Like how are you figuring out that somebody is really aligned with your purpose?

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah. So I think one thing is we, my talent acquisition team reviews every application. So there is no AI there. There is no, you know, beating the ATS. And one of our application questions, which we do really, really read, ask like, why are you interested in this role? Why are you in Merit America? Why are you interested in Merit America? And that is really helpful for us to see what candidates are. going to our website, what candidates are really thinking about, why they wanna work here. We also have had to do a couple of different things in our hiring process to kind of bring our mission and our organizational culture to life, right? Like you don’t get that feel when you’re a remote organization. Like for some folks, can like, when you go into the office here, I’m sorry, I feel like I’m talking, like I just know.

JOSH: No, no, you’re good.

KATIE RAKUSIN: I feel like I’m speaking over like myself. Yeah, sorry.

JOSH: No, you’re good. No, you’re good. No, that was great. think, yeah, like I think in a remote environment, you definitely don’t get the opportunity to showcase what you might be able to do on site. Like I remember for us, even before we rent remote and we were an in-person company, you know, there was an experience to bringing somebody to the office for an interview and what they were able to see, the people they were able to interact with. And so you don’t really get that in a remote. environment, unless to your point, you’re super intentional. So I guess going back to like, we were talking about originally in a remote environment versus, you know, an onsite type of environment, that’s certainly a challenge. So how do you guys address that throughout the candidate experience to make sure people get a feel for your organization, even though they’re not coming in and being able to see everybody that works there and, and be in the same environment.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah, so it’s two little different things. So one, we have this kind of virtual brochure. We call it our candidate interview guide. And it is this document that talks a little bit about Merit America, talks a little bit about the role. It includes a link to the job trailer, which the job trailer is kind of like a video job description where it’s either the hiring manager talking about their team and the role or a member of my team talking about the team and the role. And it also includes like, are you going to be interviewing with? Like what teams will you be working with? And so that is something that people can, you know, look at it’s tangible. We also have done some, you know, role specific info sessions. So that’s when we have the hiring manager. That’s when we have a talent acquisition team member and maybe other people from the team as well. Just kind of talking about the role, talking about the team. And we also try to be super intentional in those interviews where we talk about our journey to merit America and who we are. And so, you know, we’re trying to replicate that, you know, walking into the office, seeing the receptionist, going through the office to get to the conference room to interview. And I think it’s been, you know, pretty successful. And, you know, we, get a lot of really positive feedback on those job trailers and the candidate interview guide.

JOSH: I love it. I mean, from when I was doing research before we did this recording session, I saw a lot of the candidate facing content that you guys put out there. A lot of it was referenced in some of your LinkedIn posts as well. And I think you guys are doing such a great job of that. So I want to double click on that a little bit more. One of the things that I saw that I was originally led to by one of your LinkedIn posts was this guide to using AI in the hiring process for Merit America. And not only did it link to how you guys use AI as an organization and the way that you view AI. But I thought what was really unique and something I haven’t seen from any other employer yet was it was really a guide for candidates on the do’s and don’ts for how they should be thinking about AI and the job search and the job application process with Merit America. What was the catalyst for you putting that together?

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah. And I’m so glad you mentioned the guide for using AI. Truly, we created it because I felt like I, you when I was reviewing applications and I was like, this feels AI. But we hadn’t kind of shared those unspoken rules with candidates. Like, what is acceptable? What isn’t acceptable? And I kind of wanted to, you know, have that transparency because I think when organizations are transparent, it builds that trust with candidates. And so there’s no like, should I do this? Should I not do it? It’s like, no, we actually, I think what you’ve been saying, like you should use AI to some extent in the hiring process, whether that’s, know, digesting, you know, articles about the organization or using one of those platforms that helps you kind of tailor your resume to the job description. And so we wanted to say it’s a, Katie used that, but where it’s not okay to use that is on the performance task or live in a panel interview when you’re copying and putting the questions into chat GPT. so, you know, I think AI is around us and I wanted to kind of like address the elephant in the room. And also just kind of, you know, I don’t know if it’s leveling the playing field, but just saying here’s what’s okay and here’s what’s not. So that. there isn’t that gatekeeping of the rules.

JOSH: Yeah, I like it. I think there’s so much out there that’s so extreme one way the other, like people saying, absolutely not, don’t use it. It’s making your resume and everything look like everybody else that’s using it. And then on the flip side, there’s people that saying, use it, use it a lot. It’s going to help you, quote unquote, beat the ATS or whatever people are preaching on LinkedIn. But I think the balance is finding, setting proper expectations of to your point. Like the reality is this is just embedded in work now. This is just going to be something that everybody’s using in the workplace now. And so we can only assume that it’s going to be used and should be used in the hiring process because you’re probably going to use it on the job in some form or fashion. So setting expectations, I think, is a really helpful guide for candidates who are looking at what’s being said online and they’re not really sure, should I do this or should I not? And I think the other thing that’s really important, you called out that you were seeing almost like some AI responses to questions where you’re trying to really get a sense of, they aligned with what we’re doing to what we were talking about in the beginning of the call? so I think setting the right expectations not only helps candidates follow those expectations, hopefully, and then you get a better outcome, you get better responses as a result, but also I think to the candidate, it actually puts them in a better position for success too, because the reality is like if…

KATIE RAKUSIN: Hmm.

JOSH: they’re copying and pasting stuff from chat GPT into the application. It’s not really their authentic answer. So what would that really lead to down the line anyways? Sure. It’s like, maybe you advanced to the next step of the process, but the reality is like, if you’re not that interested in the organization or aren’t aligned with the purpose, like, that going to really be a place you’re going to end up long-term anyways? So I think it’s really important to bring that to light, set the proper expectations and ultimately, you know, set candidates up for success. So I love that you guys are doing that. What, now when you first started, so you you mentioned you’ve got a small but mighty team now appropriately sized for a 220 person company. When you first started, there was no formal TA team. Was there any talent acquisition? No.

KATIE RAKUSIN: So we had one TA partner who I think had started a few months before I came. And we had, we just, think I was supposed to come and really create that structure and kind of create the team from the ground up.

JOSH: Yep. Okay. And so tell me about the hiring managers when you started. How were they hiring before? You know, maybe what were your expectations coming in and how did that play out in reality?

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah, and I will say, you know, I feel really fortunate with the folks at Merit America. And I think, you know, everyone at the organization is very bought in and invested in having an inclusive hiring process. And so I feel really lucky that we all are sharing that common goal. And I think one of the things that I feel really proud that I’ve been able to do over the past two years is really kind of reimagine that recruiter hiring manager relationship to be a true partnership versus more of a transactional one, right? Where we’re the short line order cooks. And so I think that one came through a lot of trust building. I remember my first, I think month, month and a half at Merit America, I made a point to meet with every single person who could ever be a hiring manager. So one, just like learn like, who are you and who is your team? What have been your experiences in the past with hiring? What would you like to see? what if I had, I think I asked this question, if I had a magic wand, like what would you love to see hiring at Merit look like? And I think it was really important to meet with folks and hear their perspectives and use that to kind of guide my talent acquisition strategy. And I think, you know, we’ve been able to build trust with the hiring managers by and this is going to sound easy, by just delivering quality candidates, right? Doing what we said we would do, being responsive, being flexible. And it sounds almost contradictory, but by being flexible, we’ve been able to have more structure. And I believe that hiring managers should be active participants in the hiring process, whether that’s help designing the process. so that we have that buy-in and we can really assess what truly matters, right? And what are we really looking for in the role? And so that sounds easy, right? And there’s been a lot of lessons down the road, but I think, again, I just feel really fortunate that I get to work with a group of people who are very bought in to my team’s overall goal of having a transformative, equitable, and inclusive hiring process.

JOSH: Yeah. And I’d love to learn more about, you just mentioned it having an equitable and inclusive hiring process. That, you know, sounds like in leading up to this call, you know, in the conversations that you had with our team, that seems to be the real big focus for you at your team and has been over the last few years. So when you started, how did that become like the priority that you aligned the team on? Like, why was that so important to you? Why did you believe so strongly?

KATIE RAKUSIN: you

KATIE RAKUSIN: and

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah, I mean, you know, just being honest, having, you know, a diverse team is fundamental to merit America’s success, right? Like having a wider, more diverse talent pool can give us access to people who, you know, have the skills we really need. And yes, it’s an employer market right now, but the pendulum is going to swing eventually and it’ll be a candidate market. And so how can we really position ourselves to be, you know, an equitable, you organization. And I also think that, you know, our team really does value bringing in different perspectives to the table, if we’re going to effectively serve our learner population, which is diverse. And we also know that bringing in people with different backgrounds, know, whether that means, you know, professional experience before coming to Merit, whether that means, you know, where they’re from, it can lead to more innovation. And so we’re not just, you know, following the same path. And I think that’s really wonderful. ultimately, we work with our learners and they can connect with staff who understand their experiences. And so I think we need to kind of practice what we preach and creating opportunities for all. And so I think those are just some of the things. I think it’s like really grounding in like, why is this important for us? And so I think that’s been part of it.

JOSH: Yeah, I think that’s great. It makes so much sense. First of all, I think the reality of that diversity means so many different things, right? And you’re working with a population that is very diverse in terms of backgrounds or where they’re from or all the things that fall under that category. And so it’s important that the people that you have that are gonna be providing the services to those people that you’re working with also represent that.

KATIE RAKUSIN: No.

JOSH: I think it helps them probably make more authentic connections. like you said, your learners want to connect with people that can relate to experiences they’ve had in their life. So how much does being in a remote environment help that? Because now you can look for people anywhere, not just people that can commute to a building that’s nearby.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s a great question. And I, you know, let me think about that for a moment. Can you repeat it?

JOSH: Yeah, so how much does being remote help you guys, you know, from a diversity standpoint to track people from all different types of backgrounds, because you’re not restricted for just looking in a talent pool of people that can commute to a building that, know, within 45 minutes of them.

KATIE RAKUSIN: It’s funny because I feel like you answered the question. I feel like you answered the question. I don’t want to repeat it back to you, but I was like…

JOSH: Maybe not a great, yeah, maybe not a great question. think the reality, yeah, yeah, no, the reality is right. you’re fine, you’re just able to tap into a wider talent pool because being remote, you have more geographic locations to pull from and therefore more people that have experienced different things throughout their lives just being in different situations and locations.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Thank you.

JOSH: So that makes a lot of sense, but tell me about your hiring process. Like how does that play out in your hiring process in terms of building something that’s equitable and inclusive? How do you make sure that those values ring true with the way that you guys take candidates through the process and the different steps?

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah, so I think it sort of starts with sourcing, right? And so the first thing any job seeker is going to look at is your job post. And so we’re really intentional with our job descriptions, and we run them through a bias tracker. And then we also create those kind of video job trailers and the interview guides so that folks can get access to the information in different formats. So one of the things you may hear me say over and over again is accessibility, because I think that’s really, really important. Another thing that we have done is we don’t have degree requirements on our postings. We care more about the skills and the competencies versus the pedigree. And so I think we have the sourcing and then we also think about our selection. And we have an applicant tracking system that is able to remove names and personal information from the resume, the application. We can have identity hidden performance tasks. And so we are able to really focus on can someone do the job versus where do they work? Where do they go to school? Who are they? And we also follow competency-based hiring. It’s very similar to skills-based hiring. And our interview questions are directly connected to those competencies. So what are the skills, the knowledge that folks need in order to be successful at the job? So. Again, not going to what organization did you work for and for how long. And the other like kind of, know, this is a very ticky tacky thing. We are remote. We do every interview over Zoom. And we have found that putting questions in the Zoom chat for interviews can really help folks, both those who are visual learners and help candidates have a reference point so they don’t miss anything. And so we are trying to be, you know, intentional with our hiring process so that folks can feel like, was I given the opportunity to demonstrate my skills? And because that’s what we want. And then I think, you the only other thing that I would like name is we’re really into data. So we are always looking at our hiring data, our applicant data by different demographic groups to see if the pass through rates, you know, the same.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Where are we seeing a drop off or a specific demographic? And if we see a pattern, we try to fix it and try to explore more into it. So we’re very into data, whether it’s looking at our applicant data, who are we hiring, and our candidate experience data. Are some demographics feeling a different way about our process than others? And why? And so those are some of the things that we do. We’ve also done several hiring manager trainings where we kind of go into the like, why do we do these different stages in the process? Why do we anonymize resumes? What is unconscious bias and how can that come up in the hiring process? And the last thing, and you’ve probably heard me talk a little bit about competencies is my team is working on creating competency frameworks for every functional team at our organization that we’re gonna use. from hiring to performance management so that we’re having consistent and objective evaluations from the hiring process to our performance reviews. And that is definitely a bigger thing that we’re trying to accomplish, but I think it goes hand in hand with creating a more diverse talent pipeline and inclusive workplace.

JOSH: First of all, amazing. I think you guys are doing a great job. I mean, you guys really have taken a methodical approach to it where you are being very intentional at so many different steps of your hiring process. Obviously that doesn’t happen overnight. That takes a lot of work and you can go step by step to address those things. So I love that you’ve done that, but I also love that you’re measuring it because what’s the point of doing it if you’re not. measuring it and knowing is it working? What changes do we need to make? And how do know what you need to do in the future? So I think that’s great. I want to talk about competency-based hiring for a moment. I think it’s great that you guys are building out a whole framework that not only applies to hiring, but also for development and performance and everything like that. A lot of organizations are interested in and really want to base their hiring process more around. sets of competencies and really can this person, do they have the skills and the right behaviors to do this job rather than, you know, whatever you see on a resume. But I find that a lot of organizations just don’t really know where to start with that. It’s like, how do we know, okay, we’ve got this job. How do we know what the competencies should be? How do we know we have enough of them that we’re evaluating? How do we know that we’re not evaluating too much and being too picky and you know,

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah.

JOSH: fluffing up too much as far as a number of competencies that we’re evaluating for. So how did you guys get started with that? Like what was your first step?

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah, and it’s funny, sometimes when I’ve talked with other recruiters, I’m like, how do you define competency-based hiring? And it’s always that. you know, the skills, like, it’s hard to define and it, and that’s why I said, like, that was one of the bigger things. And so how we have approached creating our competency framework is, we are looking at it for each of our functional teams. like the people team that I am a part of our finance team. And, it is, it’s a multi-step process. we first, you know, connected with, you know, the team members to ask like, What are the things that drive success in your team or in your role? What are the skills that you need to know in order to do your job? Because I could live out merit America’s values. could meet my goals, but I know nothing about finance. I would be an awful controller. I would be very bad at that. so we, know, first did a feedback loop with the, the employees on the team. And then we kind of like synthesized and, you know, pulled out trends. met with the team lead to kind of say like, here’s everything they said. Like, sometimes it’s like 13 different things and that’s not something we can really evaluate across the board. And then from there, you know, they helped us kind of fine tune it and went through several iterations of, you know, us creating something, them giving feedback until we landed with something that, you know, we’re able to use. And I said it joking, like 13 competencies, like… can you realistically assess 13 competencies in a hiring process? And the process I described for you in creating the competencies was for our competency frameworks we’re gonna use for hiring and for performance management. But kind of what I tell folks is like, what is the different stages of the hiring process and what competencies are you assessing at each stage? And you can’t have your laundry list of things. Like what is truly…

KATIE RAKUSIN: the things that you really need, what are the things that are gonna drive success and how can we build our entire process around assessing those specific skills. So it is not easy, but I think that when you build your process around competencies, when you make your performance task, simulate like real life challenges the candidate will face in the role. you know, not those like abstract puzzles or got the questions, but when you’re like giving them an opportunity to say like, this is something you could face in this role, we are able to assess like, can they do it? And the candidate can assess, do I like doing this? Is it too hard? Is it too easy? And I really think this, you know, approach has been game changing for us. And we brought in really great talent. And it also has then led to the, you know, onboarding process because

JOSH: Hahaha.

KATIE RAKUSIN: You know, new hires have already demonstrated the capabilities that we need them to in this role. And so, yeah, it’s been a really, really cool process.

JOSH: Yeah, that’s great. think, you know, to your point, just going back to the using 13 competencies as an example, I think that’s lot of things hiring managers struggle with is the list becomes too long. And it’s like, we really have to get to what is ultimately required for somebody to be successful in this position versus what are things that are nice to have versus what are things that they can learn on the job? you know, whether it’s behaviors or skills. So I think that’s really important to collaborate with hiring managers on.

KATIE RAKUSIN: We did.

JOSH: How do you guys think about like in terms of skills, like a hard skill versus behaviors, like both of those I would bundle under competencies. Like how do you balance that in the hiring process? Because I’m sure there’s some form of like they needed to know how to do X, Y, and Z. But also they need to be, you know, show the behaviors that are good. indicate they’re good with managing stakeholders or whatever it may be, right? How do you guys balance that, those two things?

KATIE RAKUSIN: So, and I think in some ways, the, you know, working with stakeholders could be our competency, right? If it’s like, you know, stakeholder engagement or stakeholder management, which we see, you know, many roles at Marriott America, you need to have that baseline. And so I think, you know, we start the hiring process with our job kickoff. So the meetings with the hiring manager and our recruiter, and that’s when we kind of go through like what… What is needed? And I’m hoping that the competency frameworks that we’re working on will kind of not take away that question, but give us like a really great starting point. At Merit America, we also have six core values and we’re really deliberate in how we kind of assess those core values, right? Like deliver results is one of them. And so that one, know, we have what are behavioral indicators if someone’s gonna deliver results, right? Are they able to manage data? they able to track progress to a goal? And so we definitely, you I think that could be like, are competencies? Because competencies could be functional competencies and they could also be those like more core competencies like communication or things that are not specific to a specific team.

JOSH: Yeah, that makes sense. think a lot of organizations want to incorporate core values into their hiring process, but they don’t necessarily know how to do that. So I like that approach of how you think about, how would somebody demonstrate this or what would a scenario be in which they’d be required to demonstrate this? And let’s drill into that. think a lot of organizations are like, all right, one of our core values is, for example, it’s set high standards is one of the core values at Spark Hire. And so a lot of organizations might say, you know, tell me how you set high standards or what does set high standards mean to you? And it’s like a super vague question without any context of a real world scenario. And so therefore you don’t really get much insight, from a candidate’s response on that. so I love that you guys are taking the competency based approach to your point. It takes a lot of work.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yep. Yeah.

JOSH: But I think if you’ve built that relationship with hiring managers and they’re bought into a hiring process, it’s more inclusive and equitable. They’re therefore bought into that concept. And now it’s just a matter of figuring out what is really, really important for this position and getting very, very clear about that. And probably starting with a smaller list. You know, if you’re first starting out with company C based hiring, it’s probably better to start with a smaller list of competencies to make sure that you can actually evaluate for that in the hiring process before you go on with 10 or 12.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah.

JOSH: competencies and get to the end of the hiring process. And you’re like, I really don’t know how to compare any of these candidates. So, okay. And then thinking of candidate, the candidate experience. So you’ve talked a lot about the content that you’re delivering to them in a variety of ways to make it accessible for them. So they can consume this content, learn about the organization, prepare for the hiring process in a way that matches their, you know, content comprehension style.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yep.

JOSH: When you think about your candidate experience, like what’s, what do you want candidates to take away from this? Like if they walked away after getting to the end of the hiring process and they didn’t get the job, like how would you want them to describe what they went through?

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah. you know, a Canada experience isn’t just a nice to have for us. It is truly essential in all of our aspects of hiring, because, you know, every interaction has a chance for us to show our values, right, in action. And the job search process is really stressful and it can feel dehumanizing. I mean, you go on LinkedIn and you just see the posts of people who’ve been looking for jobs for, for weeks, for months. And you know, when candidates feel genuinely and authentically respected during our process, you know, it can create that immediate differentiation in the market. And again, it’s an employer market now, but it will become a candidate market very soon. And we have found, you know, when we have intention in our candidate experience, we’re seeing a higher tick of folks who are accepting our offers and And this has truly happened, Like rejected candidates can become ambassadors for us too. So, you we’ve had people who we didn’t hire, you know, refer people to us. And this is true. Like, and it’s something that like I would see and read and be like, how is that possible? And it’s because they appreciated how we treated them. And I think, you know, I always want candidates to know where they stand with us in our process. And, you know, that can just create goodwill, even if it wasn’t the outcome that they were hoping for. so, yeah, candidate experience is just central to everything. We really do read the responses people put on our candidate experience survey, because sometimes it’s like, know, upon reflection, maybe that performance test was too much, hmm, like I’m hearing about the Zoom issues that they were having, and it’s also telling us what we should continue doing, right? people really liked the interview questions in the Zoom chat. Like that is something we just did very small and it’s made a huge impact for some folks. So I think that is kind of what we’re hoping for is that, you know, even if people didn’t get the position with us, you know, and I said this earlier, but they felt like they were able to demonstrate their skills. They felt like, you know, people were listening to them and, you know, even if they didn’t get the job, they still feel.

KATIE RAKUSIN: respected and that is what we’re aiming for.

JOSH: Yeah, I think that’s a perfect way to sum it up. Look, at the end of the day, in talent acquisition or even as a hiring manager, you have to give a lot more bad news than good news. That’s just the reality, right? And candidates know that, but you don’t have to take somebody’s dignity when you do that, right? And I think that’s the key. And I think that says a lot about your leadership style is like, if we can approach the hiring process with a lot of empathy,

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah.

KATIE RAKUSIN: Yeah.

JOSH: And from a very intentional place, we can build one where candidates feel they get to demonstrate their skills. It was fair. They were in a fair shot at the role and it didn’t work out, but this company treated me with a lot of respect and therefore I respect them as organization. And whether that, you know, leads to referrals or a repeat candidate down the line, that’s gravy. versus like being a talent acquisition leader and knowing that at the end of the day, you know, that’s the experience you’re delivering. to other people and they’re gonna have good things to say about your process. So of course there’s a lot of benefits for the organization of doing that of higher offer acceptance rates because people enjoy the process or referrals because people enjoy the process but they didn’t get the position. But I think as an individual that allows you to take home a lot of pride in the way that you treated people and feel really good at the end of the day when look, you’re probably giving bad news to 95 % of the people but if you did it in such a way with respect, you know, that’s just part of the job, but you can feel really good about that going home. So I think that’s a perfect way to wrap this up because I think that speaks volumes not only about you guys as an organization, but as you as a talent acquisition leader and the things that you’re trying to bring to the organization. So I really appreciate you sharing all that with us today. And I know there’s going to be so many things that people are going to take home from this episode. And we’ll probably have some follow-up questions for you around competency-based hiring and… how you orchestrated all these things that you deliver in the candidate experience, such as all the content that you guys created. But, you know, we can save those conversations for another day. So I really appreciate you coming on, Katie. This was so fun.

KATIE RAKUSIN: No, thank you for having me. And yes, I agree that like human-centered approach just, it really just aligns with Married America’s mission that, you we’re in the business of helping people transform lives. And I think that starts with how you treat them from the very first interaction. So thank you so much for having me.